Powergaming: Wizard vs. Sorcerer

[amethal]

Just wondering which is considered a more powerful class.

Edit: Specialist Wizards count.

Why do you care?

There are plenty of threads on this subject, but the vast majority of arguments are pretty campaign specific.

For example, many DMs (myself included) will never target a wizard's spellbook; so long as the wizard doesn't leave it lying around in the the thieves quarter, or a similar act of stupidity, then its perfectly safe.

Some DMs are much more ruthless, and if you get shipwrecked, captured, burgled etc. then the spell book is fair game. Wizards in these campaigns need to invest resources in protecting their spell books, and would be well advised to take the spell mastery feat.

On the other hand, there are apparently (per arguments on these boards and elsewhere) DMs who come up with scenarios where only a specific arcane spell will solve the problem, at which point the sorcerer is almost definitely screwed and the wizard come into his own.

 

[Felix]

IF:

The character knows what's coming at him a long time in advance, is allowed to slow the pace of the game to suit his character, participates in adventures that are not time-sensitive, may rest and recover spells on command...

Then the Wizard is more powerful and the Sorcerer's lack of strategic flexibility will show.

IF:

The character doesn't know what's coming at him a long time in advance, is not allowed to slow the pace of the game to suit his character, participates in adventures that are time-sensitive, may not rest and recover spells on command...

Then the Sorcerer is more powerful and the Wizard's lack of tactical flexibility will show.

----

Because I think a single character tailoring the pace of the game to his character is disruptive, I prefer to play, and play in parties with, a Sorcerer. But the circumstances will define which class is more effective.

 

[krunchyfrogg]

Why do you care?.

Just curious, thought I'd start a discussion. The idea actually came from the OotS thread, where it's stated that V is a powergamer. Got me thinking.

There are plenty of threads on this subject, but the vast majority of arguments are pretty campaign specific..

Yeah, uh sorry for not searching for any threads on it (ya know, since I can't).

 

[Kvantum]

As much as I prefer to play and DM sorcerers, and as much as I hate the tome-lugging paper mages, even I have to admit Wizards are more powerful.

 

[wayne62682]

Wizard definitely. Spontaneous magic looks good on paper and in theory but in play it's crippled by the lack of spells known. At any given level a Wizard can cast typically just as many spells as a Sorcerer, and knows more so he can cast like Sorcerer A on one day, and Sorcerer B on the next by swapping out his spells known (nevermind using the "leaving slots open" rule to prep spells in 15 minutes). Add in the fact that the Sorcerer must wait an extra level before getting a new spell level, and the Wizard is the clear victor.

 

[Felix]

At any given level a Wizard can cast typically just as many spells as a Sorcerer, and knows more so he can cast like Sorcerer A on one day, and Sorcerer B on the next by swapping out his spells known (nevermind using the "leaving slots open" rule to prep spells in 15 minutes).

This is true, but:

The wizard has fewer spells to cast in a day, and leaving slots open reduces that further. If an encounter comes upon him that he is not specifically prepared for his utility counts for naught.

The sorcerer need only have one attack spell known per level, and the rest may go towards utility. Those attack spells may be modified by Spontaneous metamagic as needed to suit the challenge.

No, the sorcerer has no strategic flexibility. But admit that neither does the wizard have much in the way of tactical flexibility. Only if the wizard is given time does this change.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

I like playing sorcerers better....

But wizards are by far more powerfull. 5 feats over 20 levels is VERY powerfull, you can afford to take some cool fun feats.

Wizards can generally duplicate the sorcerers higher number of spells with scrolls (Though this costs time and money which are not always available).

Spontaneous casting is fun and lots less paperwork. It is flexible and you can spam spells. But it is not nearly as powerfull as all the limitations. Delayed spell level (low level spells are not the problem 9th level shouldbe delayed not 2nd level) SUCKS. Long casting time on metamagic, and the very limited number of spells know.

Lots of people like playing them for blasters, which I find boring. Warlock and Warmage are better if that is what you want.

Once you take into account specialization they do not have that many more spells than wizards per day. The worst limitation is the low number of spells known. You also loose out on the feats.

So I like sorcerers better even with the limitations, wizards are alot better. I think it is more difficult to play a sorcerer better and it takes more planning to make a very effective one. But I don't play blasters and have no intrest in it. Warlock or Warmage would work better if you just want to blow stuff up. Sorcerers work good for it but I think there is alot more potential there.

It is easier to play a wizard and a bad choice or two here and there is no big deal, the same can cripple a sorcerer though. Because they are simple to setup and get going people think of them as a newbie class, which they can be, but are more of a challange to play really well.

 

[Pyrex]

Wizard definitely. Spontaneous magic looks good on paper and in theory but in play it's crippled by the lack of spells known. At any given level a Wizard can cast typically just as many spells as a Sorcerer, and knows more so he can cast like Sorcerer A on one day, and Sorcerer B on the next by swapping out his spells known (nevermind using the "leaving slots open" rule to prep spells in 15 minutes). Add in the fact that the Sorcerer must wait an extra level before getting a new spell level, and the Wizard is the clear victor.

In practice that's not quite how it works out. A while back I played in a game that ran from 1st to 16th with both a Wizard and a Sorcerer in the party.

First off, the Sor should always have one more spell-per-level (except for Wizards getting new levels of spells faster) than a specialist wizard (assuming equivalent casting stats).

Also, daily spell selection for the Wizard is as critical as known-spell selection is for the Sorcerer.

Over the course of the campaign we noticed that on any given day the Wizard was only able to use (on average) 50-70% of his prepared spells, but the Sorcerer was routinely able to use 70-90% of his spell slots.

Given that the Sor has a few more spell slots than the Wiz anyway, that means the Sor frequently cast twice as many spells over the course of the day than his Wiz buddy did.

Sure, there were times the Wiz had a spell that the Sor didn't; but spontaneous casting gives the Sor the gas to keep on cranking.

 

[Technik4]

I say Wizard. Given equal access to everything (PrCs, feats, items) the Wizard wins out unless he never has time to make scrolls or add new spells to his book.

1. Int is a better stat than Cha - it affects skill points and some key skills versus Cha which is largely supplanted by spells at higher levels anyway.
2. Earlier level acquisition - the blooper of 3e (but they slaughtered too many cows to notice) was setting the 2 classes with the same spell list at a different progression. Wizards have an edge which becomes more noticeable the longer each level lasts.
3. No metamagic lagtime. An empowered fireball takes a 5th level slot and goes kaboom a standard action later. Ditto quickened Magic Missiles.
4. Bonus Feats

I think sorcerers are an interesting class, but they need bonus feats and a d6 to stand up to wizards...

 

[jasin]

Well, after a certain level, a sorcerer could have the right spells for planar binding, and enough Cha that something like a trumpet archon would have a little chance to resist his honeyed words, so you could be routinely be playing a sorcerer and a 12-HD outsider that casts as a 14th-level cleric at the same time...

But I still voted wizard.