Powering up Cursed items

[ThirdWizard]

I've come to think that the enemy of an interesting cursed item is rules.

It depends on your goal. If your goal is to hand the PCs a rope, watch them fashion it into a noose, wrap it around their own neck, and jump off the ledge, at every step cursing themselves for their own foolishness, then you're going to want rules that the player knows. It makes it harder to pull off, that's for sure, but the end result is a beautiful thing.

 

[LostSoul]

Here's a cursed item from my campaign:

military melee weapon of will, created by devils for authority, cursed (desires worship):
Infernal Longsword of Rulership - this well-crafted longsword has a reddish tint and its blade is always warm to the touch. In the hands of most, the sword is merely a +2 weapon, but if the weilder takes a Blood Oath to serve Asmodeus, the sword grants the following powers:
* The sword grants the skill "Infernal Authority: When someone disobeys your commands, your eyes glow red and the wrath of hell burns in your veins, giving you the will to get what you want."
* If the wielder is able to extract a terrible secret from someone, the sword grants the user one use of Dark One's Own Luck. The sword holds a curse, however: when Dark One's Own Luck is used, all who can see the wielder suddenly know the terrible secret.
* The wielder must follow the Oaths of Asmodeus or take the standard -2 penalty.
The sword can communicate with its wielder via whispers.​

The first line was generated from my magic item tables.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

I've come to think that the enemy of an interesting cursed item is rules.

Once you've laid your cards on the table about how precisely a cursed item functions then the players will (naturally) try and set about using those rules to see that they get the most benefit (if any) from an item while avoiding the drawbacks as much as possible. If the drawbacks clearly outweigh any benefits then they'll probably try and get rid of the item as quickly as possible.

This is sort of what I'm getting at.

I like the idea of players _getting_ a specific benefit. Preferably one that's strong. That's part of the reason _why_ cursed objects are able to keep claiming people in the first place; they offer power and people think they'll be able to use it and escape unscathed.

I _think_ a way of handling this is explicitly giving the character a benefit, but leaving the cost (what the GM gets when they cash in a token) unspecified is the (or one) way to get there. Especially if the GM uses them in a ...genre appropriate?... fashion.

In other words, the awesome slaying sword chops through enemies and the GM holds back, using a token here or there for an auto-crit or something, until stuff gets "real" and the villain pulls an escape from certain death. Not just laughing manically and auto-killing a character. Killing off NPCs that have become established in the game, all those sorts of things that you get in tv shows and books, but don't actually pop up in rpgs.

The black book is groovy. It's sort of going in a different direction than I'm thinking, it that it's become the plot or at least part of it. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that it's a...common enough?... approach, if you're not just jacking with players using a cursed item.

And that's kinda what I'm trying to get at here. A middle ground.

People blow through gear like a cheap hooker at a convention. Sometimes an item or another is the McGuffin, but usually gear only sticks around long enough until it gets upgraded.

I kinda wanna see cursed items showing up and actually getting play time. Developing the character I guess.

Hmmm. I seem to not be quite explaining things right. I'll have to go and give it a think and see if I can't do better.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I _think_ a way of handling this is explicitly giving the character a benefit, but leaving the cost (what the GM gets when they cash in a token) unspecified is the (or one) way to get there. Especially if the GM uses them in a ...genre appropriate?... fashion.

In other words, the awesome slaying sword chops through enemies and the GM holds back, using a token here or there for an auto-crit or something, until stuff gets "real" and the villain pulls an escape from certain death. Not just laughing manically and auto-killing a character. Killing off NPCs that have become established in the game, all those sorts of things that you get in tv shows and books, but don't actually pop up in rpgs.

Here's the problem: If the penalty is transparent, there is effectively no penalty.

 

[Rel]

People blow through gear like a cheap hooker at a convention. Sometimes an item or another is the McGuffin, but usually gear only sticks around long enough until it gets upgraded.

I kinda wanna see cursed items showing up and actually getting play time. Developing the character I guess.

I think that this issue varies a bit by system. I'm currently running Savage Worlds and it is far less dependent on gear than D&D is. To the point that the PC's almost threw away one of the only two other magic items they've seen the whole campaign because they didn't realize it was even magical. So magic items, even cursed ones, have a bit more cache in this system because they are much more rare.

Not saying that this is better because I've enjoyed a crapload of great D&D games. I'm just finding it easier to make the cursed stuff seem more exotic and special because it's not having to stand out against the background noise of a lot of other magic items.

 

[LostSoul]

My suggestion is to run the cursed item as a full NPC. Erm, scratch that. My suggestion is to steal shamelessly from Sorcerer.

In Sorcerer, you summon and bind demons. Otherwise you're a normal guy. Those demons give you power, but they demand a price. Demons have a need that you have to fill; they can't do it themselves. It's like heroin and you're the dealer. They also have a desire, a way they see the world. You run them like full NPCs. They get pissed off at the PCs and cause them all sorts of problems.

I say, do the same for cursed magic items.

Parts of my 4E hack are based on (ie. steal shamelessly from) Sorcerer. When I make up magic items, I give each a 50% chance (1-3 on 1d6) to be cursed. This means it has a desire; I roll on the table to find out what that is, then flesh it out. I also use similar things to determine how Warlock pacts work.

Here are the tables; the Desire one is stolen from Sorcerer & Sword.

Patron’s Goal or Desire
1d6	Goal		Notes
1	Community	Establish a new one or protect an existing one
2	Conquest	Conquer a land or territory in the name of the patron
3	Corruption	Corruption of the warlock
4	Ruin		As corruption, but focused on larger communities
5	Worship		Requires setting up a cult or religion to the patron
6	Creation	Requires creating something that will last – a great black tower, an artefact, or a pervasive meme

Pact Obligation
1d6	Demand			Notes
1	Blood Sacrifice		As per the ritual
2	Terrible Secrets	Secrets stolen from people that would cause great shame and despair if revealed
3	Ritual Sex		Children conceived during the orgy are born without souls, vessels of the patron
4	The Yellow Sign		The warlock inducts another person into the meme of the Yellow Sign; see the ritual for more information
5	Cannibalism		Includes any demi-human creature, not just those of the warlock’s own race
6	Destruction		The warlock destroys something of great value (sentimental or real)

 

[frostburn]

I like where this thread is going. I think cursed items have a place in the game, but I also am thinking about the 3.5ed game variate iron Heroes where your characters were very Conan-style were magic and wizards are bad. The magic items all have this risk/reward trade off which seam to lead to them not being used but it didn't matter usually, bc that is how the game world wanted MI to be.

But i'm guessing we would juice up the powers till we got a bite from the players. Although Rel's black book, I am still geeking out about. It is still different than the risk/reward item being talked about.

 

[Hautamaki]

One way I like to handle cursed magic items is through deceiving the players about what the items are actually doing. For example, the +3 longsword is actually curing the demons you are trying to slay with it. The players have to figure out, in the middle of the battle, why all the damage they are rolling up doesn't seem to have any effect on that demon. Of course, that's a trick that's really only good for 1 encounter, but what a memorable encounter it was! heh heh heh.

 

[jedavis]

I was going to suggest Iron Heroes as well - nothing like addictive healing potions and armor that grows into your flesh to make you make interesting choices regarding magic item use. However, IH seems to fall more into the Savage Worlds model of magic item prevalence - you're willing to use the dangerous magic because it's the only magic there is. I think that's not really what the OP's getting at... making cursed item use a choice in D&D / high fantasy where uncursed magic items are relatively abundant is much harder.

That said, I really like the symmetric tokens idea (it also reminded me of IH). How about an amulet which lets you reroll a failed saving throw up to once per day, but for each such reroll, the DM gains one "force the wearer to reroll a successful save, or allow an enemy to reroll a failed save" token? Or weapons that can be made +5 enhancement on a particular attack, but allow one attack against the wielder with a +5 enhancement bonus. Or a device of resurrection which allows the DM to resurrect a slain NPC of his choice... hell, you could attach that caveat to all resurrection spells. Any time a PC is resurrected, one of their dead enemies also comes back in order to keep the balance on the Material Plane. That'd be mighty convenient, both as a real cost to resurrection and a convenient means to keep the roster of hostiles stocked without having to come up with new ones all the time.

Anyways - good idea. May have to try it out.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

One way I like to handle cursed magic items is through deceiving the players about what the items are actually doing.

While this can work for some people and some groups, it's definitely not what I'm talking about. For one thing, this falls into the category of the GM screwing the players. D&D is already littered with decades of this.

For another thing, I personally don't happen to like being dishonest with my group in that way. I roll dice out in the open too. *shrug* This particular thing is a playstyle thing on my part, but combined with the fact that lying to players is actually Standard Operating Procedure for D&D GMs... nah.

I was going to suggest Iron Heroes as well - nothing like addictive healing potions and armor that grows into your flesh to make you make interesting choices regarding magic item use. However, IH seems to fall more into the Savage Worlds model of magic item prevalence - you're willing to use the dangerous magic because it's the only magic there is. I think that's not really what the OP's getting at... making cursed item use a choice in D&D / high fantasy where uncursed magic items are relatively abundant is much harder.

That said, I really like the symmetric tokens idea (it also reminded me of IH). How about an amulet which lets you reroll a failed saving throw up to once per day, but for each such reroll, the DM gains one "force the wearer to reroll a successful save, or allow an enemy to reroll a failed save" token? Or weapons that can be made +5 enhancement on a particular attack, but allow one attack against the wielder with a +5 enhancement bonus. Or a device of resurrection which allows the DM to resurrect a slain NPC of his choice... hell, you could attach that caveat to all resurrection spells. Any time a PC is resurrected, one of their dead enemies also comes back in order to keep the balance on the Material Plane. That'd be mighty convenient, both as a real cost to resurrection and a convenient means to keep the roster of hostiles stocked without having to come up with new ones all the time.

Anyways - good idea. May have to try it out.

Hmmmm. I'm not familiar with Iron Heroes, other than the fact that it seemed like an even _more_ fiddly version of 3.x rules.

But what you've posted above? Dude, totally. That's the sort of thing I'm thinking. Player tosses a token from his Amulet of Awesome Saves and goes, "Yeah, I totally save. Go Finger of Death someone else." But later on, the GM spends that token and forces a reroll of a successful save that _somebody else_ made and spends it and allows the BIg Bad Villain to save when they totally should have been wormfood.

Rods of Resurrection that bring a PC back and also bring back a person's body from the dead, inhabited by a demon.

Give players the choice to use power, real power, power that's going to help them achieve their goals; but balanced by equal power being granted by the GM to advance villain goals.

I think you're sharing a similar headspace. Groovy.