Powering up Cursed items

[Scurvy_Platypus]

So.... cursed items. They're a staple of fantasy stories and common enough in some of the genre shows.

D&D has had them too, but their implementation and what they bring to the story of the game sucks. At their best, they're an annoyance that players have to figure out a way around and then waste time/money/resources to get them disconnected from their character. At their worst... well, we won't go there.

One of the things about cursed items in stories though is what role they fill. Usually they fall into one of a few categories.

1. A plot device that requires the protagonist(s) to contain and/or destroy the device.
2. A source of power that corrupts the user.
3. A source of power that has consequences for people around the user and sometimes the user.

Now, that's not an exhaustive list and it's not intended to be. Those are just the "common" ones that pop up to me. Interestingly, I don't think I've actually seen any of those three used in more than 20 years of playing rpgs.

Now, one could argue that #1 is the whole One Ring and the Middle Earth war. I'm provisionally willing to grant that, although it's a side point to this.

See, cursed items in stories aren't usually the _focus_ of the story. In LotR, the One Ring is a souce of power. It also happens to corrupt the user (just like the other rings), but that's sort of an atypical setup.

Most of the time, cursed items are things showing up, messing with people for an episode or two and then they go away. They're a driver to move story/plot forward, do some character development, whatever.

But where things get interesting is when it's an issue of power.

D&D has some odd relationships with power. Genocide in the name of absolute right, levels, killing things and taking their stuff, etc. But you dont' see something like Stormbringer being put into character's hands. Star Wars tries to sort of do something with this, but having cool powers be evil and then forcing you to have an alignment penalty for using them. However, how do you go about dealing with something like Stormbringer? It's a source of power, helps Elric out tremendously, and yet it really screws with him too.

Marvel SAGA (card-based rpg, modified version of Dragonlance SAGA) had an interesting thing. A Doom suit. Players could play whatever cards they wanted and they could use Doom suit cards to help themselves out too.

But narrators got to keep the Doom cards and use them against players later.

Now, I think that's a _great_ way to look at cursed items. Instead of some piece of junk that just gives you penalties, here's power. Use this and it'll help you succeed. But there's a cost.

That puts things on a different footing. Now the player (and the character) have to decide if the cost is worth it. Because whatever the benefit now, it's gonna be a negative later.

So what's a good way of dealing with this for a D&Dish game, as well as in general?

I'm thinking some sort of token system. Use a token and get X benefit. Tokens spent in this fashion get paid to the GM and the GM can spend them to achieve goals their villain/monster/whatever wants.

I guess in D&Dish terms, it's sort of like a reverse Action Point. For those familiar with it, it's vageuly Fate point-ish.

What sort of limits are there? Well, to an extent it kinda depends on the item itself. In general, the better the item the better the effect. If we want to talk explicit game systems, then something like 1 or 2 tokens for each plus of an item. Which means in theory that a +5 item could have 10 tokens.

Does that sound powerful? I should hope so. Because the idea is to genuinely make it tempting.

The tokens might be something like a "pool" where there's a fixed number and it's either sitting in the player's pot or the GM's pot. The potentially nastier version is unlimited, with the player being able to spend X number of token at Y rate but with no actual limit. Crafty GMs could store up a decent chunk of tokens for the "endgame" part of the adventure where things start getting really serious.

Any input?

Like I said, it's both a D&D sort of thing as well as a system in general. Obviously you'd need to modify it a bit depending on the specific game in question.

 

[frostburn]

this could go a few different ways. as item that leads to the next adventures, or very game specific. ur heroes don't find the one ring in a random adventure stash.
Also, cursed items will need a goal(s). player works against them. they get punished. they work 4 the goal, power comes easier.
plus, a few freebie uses of its power to get player good and addictive to his new toy. in fact it might/should take a few sessions to figure out this thing is cursed b/c it started out so helpful, only later does the bad stuff start up.

basically it's an artifact that has more down side than up, but it does not start out that way.

 

[Ringlerun]

basically it's an artifact that has more down side than up, but it does not start out that way.

Like the monkey's paw that grants wishes but with terrible consequences.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Interesting idea but it sounds more like hero/fate/whateveryoucallem points than a magic item to me. But still an interesting idea. Sort of a karmic fate point system. I vaguely recall playing in systems that use a very similar idea but can't for the life of me think of names.

DnD does have intelligent items that can try to take control of the character who wields it. Essentially the GM can play it as an NPC and try to negotiate/nag the PC into performing actions it wants to take. And failing diplomacy there's the option of the Battle of Wills (or what ever it's called, sorry, been a while since I looked at those rules, 1ed days) to take direct control of the character and force them to do what the item wants. Like when Stormbringer makes Elric turn on his friends or the One Ring makes Frodo wear it at an inopportune time.

This strikes me as a pretty good example of one the type 2 cursed magic items you're referring to. Especially when you remember that intelligent items were always pretty powerful and frequently came with their own special purpose, one that did not necessarily gel with the character's.

For type 1 no real rules system seems necessary. The GM just moves the plot along in the normal fashion. But I guess if you're playing a game where the players get to have meta-game input into the plot your token system would work. By which I mean if the player knows that taking action X gives the GM the a fate point to use against them in the future it would make the game play more dramatic. But to me it doesn't make any sense for a meta-game ability to be locked into the character's possession of an in-game doo-hicky.

For type 3 cursed items I'd build something into the item itself. Like every use sucks the life force (in form of hit points or con drain or something) from an area around it. Or it provokes atypical behaviour from those around (cowardice, greed, gluttony, sloth) with a Will save to avoid.

I'd like add a 4th type: those that have some useful abilities but also have built in draw backs when said abilities are used. For instance: a magic ring that makes you invisible to normal sight but at the same time makes you a beacon for the life-sense of undead, or even projects you partly into the plane of shadow where their unquiet spirits walk.

And of course there's the 5th type, the ones alluded to in your OP. The bog standard cursed DnD items that explode (metaphorically or not) in your face when you use them.

Any others?

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Interesting idea but it sounds more like hero/fate/whateveryoucallem points than a magic item to me. But still an interesting idea. Sort of a karmic fate point system.

I guess vaguely it might be... but not really. At least, not more than Action Points are. If it helps you picture/understand what I'm describing better, think of it as a magic item giving an enhanced Action Point or two for each plus of the item.

DnD does have intelligent items that can try to take control of the character who wields it. Essentially the GM can play it as an NPC and try to negotiate/nag the PC into performing actions it wants to take. And failing diplomacy there's the option of the Battle of Wills (or what ever it's called, sorry, been a while since I looked at those rules, 1ed days) to take direct control of the character and force them to do what the item wants. Like when Stormbringer makes Elric turn on his friends or the One Ring makes Frodo wear it at an inopportune time.

Ok, now this right here? This is the sort of thing I'm trying to get away from. I've seen lots of GMs that think this is a great idea; I've never met a player that thought so though.

Part of the problem is that this sort of thing is directly taking control of a character and removing the player's ability to interact and make decisions. Just because it's an "item" doing it doesn't make it really that much more acceptable than the GM simply saying, "Give me a roll...15? Nope, your character is going to do [whatever] instead." without an item; ever gone for mind-controlling a character because they failed a save and now the NPC is screwing with them? Players freaking hate it as a general rule. Making it be an "intelligent item" or a "cursed object" isn't going to make it more palatable.

I want cursed objects to _actually_ be something that is a struggle to deal with because the power they offer is attractive; not just screw the player by randomly penalizing them or removing the player's ability to control their character.

This strikes me as a pretty good example of one the type 2 cursed magic items you're referring to. Especially when you remember that intelligent items were always pretty powerful and frequently came with their own special purpose, one that did not necessarily gel with the character's.

For type 1 no real rules system seems necessary. The GM just moves the plot along in the normal fashion.

But the way this always plays out in rpg games, the character/player suffers. Often in stories, when a cursed object is there and it's purpose isn't to simply blow up NPCs and provide some "character development" for the protagonists, it's more of a symbiotic relationship. Or at least it appears that way. The item has _power_, it's just that there's a price associated with it.

In most rpg games, it's a parasitic relationship. The item completely screws the character and only gives enough of a benefit that the GM doesn't feel like they're being a _complete_ tool.

You're right, type 1 items don't need rules. That's because they never really show up in rpg games to begin with. Example: In the TV show "Supernatural" there's an episode with a wishing well. Make a wish, toss in the coin, it comes true.

Every single one. Period.

The curse of course is that the wish twists and goes bad slowly, making the person's life more and more difficult.

Now, from a game perspective, this is happening to NPCs. Who frankly, the PCs aren't really going to care about; the game is about PCs not NPCs. The characters are affected by what's going on and have to deal with it, but it's a one-off deal; find the cause, reverse it, everything is fixed. But most rpg games don't do this. People are spending freaking months of real time looking for items, playing FedEx to collect all the pieces necessary for the uberspecial ritual that can only be performed while dancing naked with a 1 legged stork on a full moon with an eclipse... all kinds of crazy stuff.

But I guess if you're playing a game where the players get to have meta-game input into the plot your token system would work. By which I mean if the player knows that taking action X gives the GM the a fate point to use against them in the future it would make the game play more dramatic. But to me it doesn't make any sense for a meta-game ability to be locked into the character's possession of an in-game doo-hicky.

Chances are you're not going to like Action Points either.

I'm not necessarily talking about making cursed items be a plot thing in the first place. Curse items _can_ be a plot thing, they're certainly a _potential_ for character development; but the way they're usually used, especially in D&D? They're complete garbage. They're a drain on resources and basically boil down to the GM making people's lives difficult.

Bonuses and penalties are "meta-game abilities" that are often locked into a character's possession of an in-game "doo-hickey". That's magic items _period_. I'm saying, instead of just screwing the player and blaming it on a "cursed item", you make it be a choice: do you use this power to achieve a goal _you_ (the player or character) want, knowing that there's going to be a price to be paid later?

For type 3 cursed items I'd build something into the item itself. Like every use sucks the life force (in form of hit points or con drain or something) from an area around it. Or it provokes atypical behaviour from those around (cowardice, greed, gluttony, sloth) with a Will save to avoid.

Forcing behaviour is something I've already covered. Stat/ability draining... not particularly interesting or "dramatic". You could think of Power Attack as that sort of deal: trade to hit for damage. All you're talking about doing is shifting the cost to some other stat, possibly making it linger, and then tarting it up with some sort of "you'll only be able to recover this if you give it up" or "it'll only recover very slowly" or "it'll only recover if you pay [some inflated price]".

It shifts things to more of a numbers game: risk-reward, cost-benefit analysis. Is a loss of X number of points of Y for Z amount of time worth the outcome?

Instead, I want to bypass that. Let's go crazy for a second...

A character finds a +2 sword of slaying. The player gets 4 tokens; we'll go with a limited pool, so that means that if the player blows all 4 tokens, the GM has to spend at least 1 token before the player can use the ability of the weapon again.

And what's that ability? The sword kills things. Anything. You give it a god, the Tarasque... the sword will kill it. Of course, the thing might come back to life depending on it's powers, but that's not the point. The point is, the player spends a token and that sword will kill dead _anything_.

I can already hear GMs squawking about how this is going to ruin everything.

Now, when the player goes to spend the token they're going to have to ask themselves, "What's the GM going to spend this on?" It's an _unknown_ risk analysis. But it's a tempting one, especially if they're going into a fight they _know_ is going to be tough.

If the GM spends the token and declares "The attack that just hit you is a critical" that might or might not be worth it to a player. Maybe it'll be worth it even if the GM spends the token for the Big Bad to escape when they were _sure_ they had him dead to rights.

Yeah, there's a certain element of the fate point thingy going on here, but the point isn't "How do I justify having fate/action/hero/whatever points in my game?" the point is, can we actually make cursed items the sorts of things players _want_ to interact with, instead of being objects that GMs give to players when they're being a tool.

I'd like add a 4th type: those that have some useful abilities but also have built in draw backs when said abilities are used. For instance: a magic ring that makes you invisible to normal sight but at the same time makes you a beacon for the life-sense of undead, or even projects you partly into the plane of shadow where their unquiet spirits walk.

Again, it's a cost-benefit analysis deal. Anytime you set up something explicit like that, either it's an instant red-flag to a player that characters will need to start stock-piling undead stuff, or whatever. It means that you're making the game be about the _item_, not about the characters and the effects of their choices. If that makes sense.

And of course there's the 5th type, the ones alluded to in your OP. The bog standard cursed DnD items that explode (metaphorically or not) in your face when you use them.

Any others?

And these are the worst. We don't want these. Why? Because these sorts of things are part of what gave rise to people insisting on playing "Rules as Written" in the first place. This is the sort of thing where GMs just screw over players/characters and claim it's "part of the plot" or it's "character development" or whatever. It's what makes players run from cursed items and turns cursed items into nothing more than negative treasure.

We've already had 20+ years of this. I want to see if we can try something different.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I'll try my hand.


White Steel, Bane of Khelzatis
This sword was forged by a paladin Order generations ago and used to fight the demons of the First Incursion. It is the blade that slew the archfiend Khelzatis. However, his blood cursed the sword, and the Order's weapon became an agent of demons.

Holy Avenger Longsword +4
Power: The wielder can summon an angel of equal power to himself to fight along side him and his allies. The angel remains throughout the encounter.
Curse: For every time the wielder summons an angel, the next time the sword is near demons, it begins calling more of their kind until all demons are killed or the wielder flees.



So, the idea here being, you have to make sure the players know when the penalty for using the item is coming into effect. It can't be undefined thing or the players, when they see it, will just assume it is part of the encounter. "Oh wow, the BBEG is really getting a lot of crits!" Or worse, they'll forget the item and think you're fudging or made the encounter too hard. If you TPK them, then blame it on the cursed item, it might seem like a cop out. With the item above, they know exactly what they're getting into, which I see as a good thing. Now they can make an informed decision, you can make encounters as you normally would, and when the thing goes off, they're going to be peeing their pants!

 

[Rel]

I've come to think that the enemy of an interesting cursed item is rules.

Once you've laid your cards on the table about how precisely a cursed item functions then the players will (naturally) try and set about using those rules to see that they get the most benefit (if any) from an item while avoiding the drawbacks as much as possible. If the drawbacks clearly outweigh any benefits then they'll probably try and get rid of the item as quickly as possible.

Now this asks the question, "Is it fair to hide the rules for how an item works from the players?" I think that the answer should probably be, "If the PC's have the capability of reasonably discerning what a magic item does then it's probably not fair to hide the mechanics of a cursed item." However I tend to sidestep this question by having cursed items not play by any specified set of rules.

An example of this is in my current (Savage Worlds) campaign, where, on Night 1 of the campaign one of the PC's joined the party by being rescued from an evil ritual being performed upon him. The ritual was being read out of this "Black Book" and, after the dust settled, the PC's ended up with this book.

The Black Book was covered in some very black substance that tried to stick to your fingers when you touched it. It physically resisted being opened and, when it was opened, what was written inside was in an unknown script and also gave off such a creepy aura that the PC's had to make fear checks each round to keep reading it.

Mechanically the Black Book had no benefits or drawbacks. But it was clearly important to the bad guys so the PC's kept carrying it with them for fear of it falling into enemy hands. One PC in particular kept it in his backpack where it would occasionally squirm. The players were utterly creeped out and fascinated by this book precisely because it was a huge mystery.

There was nothing keeping them from discarding the book at any time or possibly destroying it. But they were determined to discover what information was concealed within and equally determined to keep it out of the hands of their evil enemies. I've had them come across a few hints along the way that this book was historically important. For these reasons much of the plot of the first third of the campaign has revolved around this book. All of this has been player driven, not because the book is forcing them to do anything nor is it such a problematic burden that they are actively trying to destroy it.

It's probably been the single most successful "cursed" magic item that I've ever included in a game. And most of that I attribute to the fact that the item remains a mystery rather than a mechanic.

 

[David Howery]

anyone remember the old syndicated 'Friday the 13th' television series from way back when? It had nothing to do with the movies other than the title, and dealt with a group of antique store owners who inadvertently sold a whole pile of cursed items after receiving the store in an inheritance, and they spent the whole series getting them back. The cursed items were a neat bunch of things that corrupted people one by one; basically, they offered special boons to people who did evil (in the show, it was mostly murdering people). The items were a subtle and tricky bunch... a wheelchair that gave disabled people the ability to walk... a playhouse that sheltered and comforted abused children... a compact mirror that gave a homely girl the power to charm men... a hearing aid that gave a guy the power to read minds. Of course, to get any of those powers, the owners had to do evil.

I thought often of trying to use this basic idea in D&D, but it's a bit harder since the PCs are killing people (evil ones, to be sure) all the time in the course of their adventures. Maybe it would work better as an escalating series of events; reward the bearer first for doing small things like bullying, work their way up into the murder of innocents...

 

[Hand of Evil]

One's cursed item is anothers holy item.

The item can be a legacy device, Stormbringer and Bloodstone ring come to mind, where the item was created to do a function (kill the Choas gods at any cost). It is that the nature of the weapon was lost in time or even the people that created it are no longer around, the item is then just trying to do it's job to the best of it's abilities.

 

[jefgorbach]

not really, just attune the required evil into something more to your likely/plot need. for instance:

* magical silver dagger with the animal-headed hilt inflicts lycanthropy if used to kill during a full moon.

* armor/weapon/relic clearly belonging to a Good diety was subsequently cursed by a rival faction so while some minor properties work without failure, using any major features are temporarily lost once used until the current owner slays one of the diety's priests/favored animals. Identify reveals its powers normally, but not the curse.