Pramas on 4E and New Gamers

[xechnao]

Drakar och Demoner is a BRP clone, btw. And also the basis for my thoughts on first mover advantages determining the dominant rpg player in different markets.

/M

Explain this better please.

Btw, interesting stuff to know. Thanks for the info

PS -is this the rpg illustrated by Paul Bonner?

 

[Wisdom Penalty]

Loses Base, Brings in lots of new blood - Moderate Success
...

My money says 90% chance Huge Failure.

Two things:

1) If the loss of some of the base is equaled by the number of new gamers brought to the hobby, that is better than a moderate success. New gamers have a purchasing lifetime longer than us old farts, so even a 1:1 ratio is a benefit for economic longevity.

2) I'll take that bet. You're given me 10:1 odds, right?

Frankly, I know we hate to think this way, but those of us who have been playing for two decades are important to the hobby - but not nearly as important as some 14-year kid who picks up his first PHB. So we'll whine and pull our beards and complain about the loss of the Great Wheel, for example, but that doesn't mean Jack Diddly if the new edition jives with the 14-year old more than the old.

Now, Pramas says 4e will fail in that latter aim. But he's not 14 years old, as far as I can surmise. The anecdotal evidence on these boards suggests younger players (and non-gaming spouses) are interested in 4e and are playing it, whereas they did not play previous editions. Significant? Probably not, but one can hope for a growing trend based upon these positive instances and the record-breaking sales.

I think all of us need to be very careful that we do not equate What Is Good for Us with What Is Good for The Hobby.

Personally, I don't like the exclusion of barbarians in the PHB and frost giants in the MM. I liked D&D's standing cosmology. I miss half-orcs and I'm not a fan of eladrin. I wish we had more rituals and more variance in powers. And so on.

Does my opinion matter? No. Unless it is shared by a majority of others. That doesn't seem to be the case.

Am I egotistical enough to want WotC to subscribe to my opinion instead of doing what they believe could be done to inject new blood? Heck no.

If building a new cosmology and a more fluid ruleset is what it takes to revitalize this community, then sign me up. I'll swallow my complaints and have fun at the gaming table. And I plunk the Great Wheel back where it belongs in my house rules.

Wis

 

[BryonD]

If you check any MMOG forum, then the forum reactions to anything (patch, new game, sunshine) are usually mixed all the time, to put it diplomatically. Even and especially in WoW, arguably the biggest success on the market.

I'd really not put too much faith on forum reactions.

Who said I was limiting myself to forum reactions?

 

[Imaro]

Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, Splinter Cell... they're all RPGs. They just get put into different buckets for marketing and critical analysis purposes. Oh, you may say, but in these games you happen to be on rails. This is true, and irrelevant for the purposes of knowing what having an in-game persona is, which is all that you need to know coming to D&D.

Yeah, I guess Tetris is a rpg too. Whatever man you can call anything an rpg, monopoly, Clue, etc. Doesn't make it so.

And said NEW DM is also likely to be playing the monsters dumb, yes?

No, he's likely to be following the tactics presented with said monster by the game designers.

I know of no game more complex than a cardboard box where you always start off at 100% system mastery. Even in WoW, newbies can run into things too hard for them.

Never said you should start with 100% mastery. New players however shouldn't have to have 60% mastery of rules and 60% mastery of tactically applying said rules to be effective.

Money is the cornerstone of a modern capitalist service economy.

Uhm...ok.

It is very simple.

HIT the bad guy in front of me.

If the bad guy in front of me is a boss monster, HIT it with Villain's Menace then cross off the ability.

If Villain's Menace is not available, HIT it with Steel Serpent Strike, then cross off the ability.

If a bunch of bad guys are clumped in front of me, BREATHE at them, then cross off the ability.

Sure, you won't be at 100% tactical efficiency, but for the first-ever session of a game in a genre that you apparently have never heard of before, you shouldn't expect to be.

What about at-will's, how do you know which is better to use? How about marking...I've found if the fighter (or Warlock, Ranger, Paladin, etc.) doesn't mark a fight can go real bad quickly. How do you determine the "boss" monster? Yeah breathe that fire, just make sure none of the other players are in it's range. Don't forget your bonus when your bloodied or that Wis bonus to your OA's. Or the persistent bonuses when you use your daily...oh yeah, do those stack with Dragonborn fury?

My player's played exactly how you described above at first and lost to Kobolds. Yeah, that would be a great way for a new person's first game to go.

 

[Doug McCrae]

40% of the audience HATES it

Source: www.completelymadeupstatistics.com

 

[pawsplay]

Tabletop RPGs are CRPGs. They just have a human server instead of a computer.

Bzzt! Try again.

 

[pawsplay]

... then D&D will never, ever equal the utility of a console game. Never. Until it becomes a console game itself. So it's a fools errand to lambast 4e for not being as easy to access as a console game, for this is a holy grail that can never be found. Unless we reduce the game to just the minis and a note saying "large monsters are badass. Now pretend". But then Halo 3 will win again.

Someone can be playing Basic D&D in about the time it takes to learn the controls for a new video game.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I've been telling people for weeks now that the organization of the book is HIDEOUS.

Page 14 of the PHB is a perfect example of this. To create a character, here are the steps:
1. Choose Race. Chapter 3.
2. Choose Class. Chapter 4.
3. Determine Ability Scores. Chapter 2.
4. Choose Skills. Chapter 5.
5. Select Feats. Chapter 6.
6. Choose Powers. Chapter 4.
7. Choose Equipment. Chapter 7.
8. Fill in the Numbers. Chapter 2.
9. Roleplaying Character Details. Chapter 2.

What? So I am starting with chapter 3, then ending with chapter 2? So, the chapter steps are: 3, 4, 2, 5, 6, 4, 7, 2, 2?

Geeeezzzz..

~Le

I really don't think this is accurate. The problem is that you're confusing two different ways of organizing a manual, by conceptual hierarchy or purposeful chunks. The 4E handbook does both in a very modern way.

The overall chapter organization is by conceptual hierarchy: your character's structure is stats, race, class/powers, skills, feats, and equipment. When you need to reference something outside of the process of using the manual this is a clear hierarchy.

When you are using the manual as a supplement to another task, however, the book is organized differently. For tasks of this sort, combat or character creation, information is centrally located. Everything you need to make your character is located on the first two pages of your class description in chapter 14.

The way it's worked for everyone I've seen make a character who wasn't mired in hideous old Edition Habits was as follows:

1.) Skim through attributes and race. 2-3
2.) Skim through class. 4
3.) Choose Class. 4
4.) Choose Build. 4 (Class X Subsection)
5.) Choose attributes and race appropriate to Build. 4 (Class X Subsection)
6.) Choose skills. 4 (Class X Subsection)
7.) Choose powers. 4 (Class X Subsection)
8.) Choose feat. 4 (Class X Subsection), maybe 6
9.) Choose equipment. 7
10.) Fill in the Numbers. Character Sheet.
11.) Play

The Hideous Edition Habits crowd tended to hit feats first thinking that was where the power was. From there it just got worse.

 

[Pbartender]

New players however shouldn't have to have 60% mastery of rules and 60% mastery of tactically applying said rules to be effective.

You've just described chess.

 

[hong]

Yeah, I guess Tetris is a rpg too. Whatever man you can call anything an rpg, monopoly, Clue, etc. Doesn't make it so.

If D&D were to feature characters that were little blocks, or plastic pieces, then you might have a point. In the meantime, I will repeat that anyone who knows action-adventures will know what an RPG is.

No, he's likely to be following the tactics presented with said monster by the game designers.

He is likely to be trying to be. Whether he succeeds is as much a matter of system mastery as for the players.

Never said you should start with 100% mastery. New players however shouldn't have to have 60% mastery of rules and 60% mastery of tactically applying said rules to be effective.

If they cannot figure this stuff out by session 2, then there is no hope. Give up and play... hmm, not WoW, because it's even more complex. Maybe Devil May Cry, but no, that's also just as complex. Maybe Lego D&D, if such a thing existed, would be up their alley.

What about at-will's, how do you know which is better to use?

Who cares? This is your first session.

How about marking...I've found if the fighter (or Warlock, Ranger, Paladin, etc.) doesn't mark a fight can go real bad quickly.

Mark early, mark always. If you need to be told not to use a power, there is no hope.

How do you determine the "boss" monster?

The one that you, the DM, took care to narrate in a way consistent with its power and position. You did do that, didn't you?

Yeah breathe that fire, just make sure none of the other players are in it's range. Don't forget your bonus when your bloodied or that Wis bonus to your OA's. Or the persistent bonuses when you use your daily...oh yeah, do those stack with Dragonborn fury?

If they need to be reminded of this past the 3rd fight or so....

My player's played exactly how you described above at first and lost to Kobolds. Yeah, that would be a great way for a new person's first game to go.

Which means you didn't take into account their newbieness.