Pramas on the OGL

[SSquirrel]

Do you have any evidence, whatsoever, that Monte Cook has changed his opinion in the last two years? If not, why would you assume he has? Based on his predictions of what would be going on in two years, it sounds like he had a very accurate idea of where the market would be.

Also, Monte didn't leave the industry for fear of 4E, he wanted to take some time off from designing games since he had been doing that constantly for a number of years and he had an opportunity to write a book, which he had always wanted to do. He wrote a lil journal entry about it back when he decided to let people know. He also figured timing it w/the release of Ptolus was a good time. Definitely a way to show leaving at the top of your game. He has since released the Book of Experimental Might (his own houserules that his fans bugged him to release) as well as his take on White Wolf's World of Darkness.

No, I don't keep up w/his website at all

EDIT:Referenced original post I was responding to for clarity.

 

[xechnao]

For WotC to have gotten more money from me, for the OGL to have cost WotC some of my money, is to assume that in the absence of the OGL I would have spent the money I spent on OGL products on WotC products.

The OGL has pushed more of my RPG buying to products that are directly D&D compatible, not cut into money I had set aside for D&D-related purchases.

Perhaps for you personaly. But I believe it has not been working like this in the market. A starting group that decides to play Conan or Ptolus will influence its gamers to buy from the Conan or Ptolus series.
Claro?

 

[Henry]

I never said it wasn't a failure of their development staff, however you *CAN NOT* deny that without the OGL, WotC would have made more money.

I can, and still do, because Not only my table, but many other DMs who frequent these forums, as well as the creator of the OGL, have said that the OGL's purpose was not to "help gamers" but to help WotC.

"All marketing and sales activity in a hobby gaming genre eventually contributes to the overall success of the market share leader in that genre."

In other words, the more money other companies spend on their games, the more D&D sales are eventually made. Now, there are clearly issues of efficiency -- not every dollar input to the market results in a dollar output in D&D sales; and there is a substantial time lag between input and output; and a certain amount of people are diverted from D&D to other games never to return. However, we believe very strongly that the net effect of the competition in the RPG genre is positive for D&D.

People doubt it, but I know it described the situation for me and my gaming group, and at least one other local gaming group in my area. I also know from conversations with people at various conventions it play at the least a small role in thei groups, too. For my group, it meant we didn't play Shadowrun or World of Darkness or GURPS; it meant we played Grim Tales, Spycraft, Star Wars, and Mutants and Masterminds. It meant we came back to D&D quicker than had we strayed into other games (only to come back again; and believe me, the majority does come back again).

...If so... it would fully explain how one former trading card company, properly run, could so utterly dominate this market away from (QUOTE)sensible(UNQUOTE) people.

It never occurs to half of you that you could possibly be wrong about something, does it?

Also, those people who ran that trading card company are largely gone now, too, as well as those who designed those D&D games. The people there now are competent, I have no doubt, but I also hope they believe that open gaming is important to the health of D&D and WotC, and that OGC companies are not just some competitor, but an important part to the gaming cycle.

 

[Henry]

Perhaps for you personaly. But I believe it has not been working like this in the market. A starting group that decides to play Conan or Ptolus will influence its gamers to buy from the Conan or Ptolus series.
Claro?

You said this previously and I have to disagree somewhat. So those gamers who bought Conan or Ptolus will NEVER come back to D&D? Are you also speculating that those gamers will not come back to WotC products any quicker than those who would go to GURPS or Shadowrun? I haven't seen it, and the opposite has been the case for us. We came back quicker to D&D than otherwise, because of the similarity of rules in products. We played more, we got proficient quicker, tired quicker, and came back to D&D quicker.

Heck, in the case of Ptolus, it's exactly what WotC said they wanted people to do -- it's a D&D supplement, meant to be used with D&D!

 

[xechnao]

Also, Monte didn't leave the industry for fear of 4E, he wanted to take some time off from designing games since he had been doing that constantly for a number of years and he had an opportunity to write a book, which he had always wanted to do. He wrote a lil journal entry about it back when he decided to let people know. He also figured timing it w/the release of Ptolus was a good time. Definitely a way to show leaving at the top of your game. He has since released the Book of Experimental Might (his own houserules that his fans bugged him to release) as well as his take on White Wolf's World of Darkness.

No, I don't keep up w/his website at all

What I have to say regarding Monte and the value of his opinion on 4e:
From whatever I-and most people around here I guess- knowledge we can have, with a bit of insight of business sense, we can suspect that Monte should strongly be in favor of 4e being OGL, especially from the day it was announced because of his professional positon.

 

[xechnao]

You said this previously and I have to disagree somewhat. So those gamers who bought Conan or Ptolus will NEVER come back to D&D? Are you also speculating that those gamers will not come back to WotC products any quicker than those who would go to GURPS or Shadowrun? I haven't seen it, and the opposite has been the case for us. We came back quicker to D&D than otherwise, because of the similarity of rules in products. We played more, we got proficient quicker, tired quicker, and came back to D&D quicker.

Heck, in the case of Ptolus, it's exactly what WotC said they wanted people to do -- it's a D&D supplement, meant to be used with D&D!

Perhaps for you again. But for the mass market this quickness path could only be if it was in a market environment that it somehow could make for all extra compromise it comes with. If it cant it simply will be invalid.

EDIT: I said this previously too, I know

 

[SSquirrel]

What I have to say regarding Monte and the value of his opinion on 4e:
From whatever I-and most people around here I guess- knowledge we can have, with a bit of insight of business sense, we can suspect that Monte should strongly be in favor of 4e being OGL, especially from the day it was announced because of his professional positon.

I never claimed otherwise, I was refuting the claim that ppl should leave the industry b/c Monte did, when he has stated quite clearly his reasons had nothing to do w/D&D. He just felt he had an opportunity he couldn't pass up and took it, which I applaud. Doing something new that might not be as profitable vs the same old thing that you know you have a waiting market for has to be a scary thing.


EDIT:I quoted catsclaw in that earlier post so my info on Monte has a bit more direction.

 

[xechnao]

I never claimed otherwise, I was refuting the claim that ppl should leave the industry b/c Monte did, when he has stated quite clearly his reasons had nothing to do w/D&D. He just felt he had an opportunity he couldn't pass up and took it, which I applaud. Doing something new that might not be as profitable vs the same old thing that you know you have a waiting market for has to be a scary thing.

Yes, you are right. I quoted your post above in an attempt to address whatever people have been posting in this thread regarding this matter.

EDIT: I saw in your edit that you got my spirit

 

[Nellisir]

I've gotten plenty of other OGL/d20 products and been burned, however (i.e., the Foundation and Dragon Lords of Melnibone).

I know Seanchai is on vacation right now, but...what? 8 years of the OGL and he cites two products from year one as evidence of his "plenty" of crummy d20?

 

[Nellisir]

Perhaps it has to do with what trancejeremy said. When 3e rolled out, this place was new. It was 3e that created it. Membership has grown over the years and so it's not surprising that there's more negativity here about the new edition - there are more people.

I'm with ByronD. It's worse this time around. Last time, people were concerned that this weird new card company would turn D&D into a card game (not a MMO). There was -not- alot of disagreement that, in the wake of the Players Options books, D&D needed a serious overhaul. The previews reassured people that while it was getting an overhaul, it wasn't changing the essential nature of the game. I'm not sure either is true this time.