[Prc] Roguish Wizard aka my revised version of the Arcane Trickster

[yennico]

Hello all,
I know there is already a discussion about the Arcane Trickster.

Alternate Arcane Trickster

My Arcane Trickster 2.0

Here is my revised version of the Arcane Trickster presented in the WotC book “Tome and Blood”. The original arcane trickster IMHO was too much relying on the sneak attack of the rogue. Ok, the sneak attack is much lower than that of a rogue but the PrC looked to me more like a kind of arcane assassin than a thief / cat burglar.

I left out the description and the parts I left unchanged.

Description: left out because it will be nearly the same as in Tome and Blood.

Requirements:
Alignment: any non lawful
Decipher Script: 6 ranks
Disable Device: 6 ranks
Escape Artist: 6 ranks
Knowledge (Arcana): 8 ranks
Race: All
Feats: Silent Spell
Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least on spell of 3rd level or higher.

Hit Dice, Class Skills and Skill Points are unchanged

Class Feature:
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: no additional proficiencies

The base attack, saves and spell progression are the same as the Arcane Trickster, I only changed the special abilities.

Level 1: Ranged Legerdemain 1x/day
Level 2: Skill Focus (Disable Device)
Level 3: Uncanny dodge (+1 vs. traps)
Level 4: The Roguish Wizard gets the special ability: Pass without trace permanent. His walks are covered like he has a permanent Pass without trace spell on himself.
Level 5: Bonus Metamagic Feat
Level 6: Uncanny dodge (+2 vs. traps)
Level 7: Ranged Ledgermain 3/day
Level 8: Improved Dispel: An Roguish Wizard can dispel wards, glyphs, symbols, magical traps with a dispel magic or greater dispelling at +2
Level 9: Instant Metamagic: Spells with the silent spell metamagic feat can be prepared without using a higher slot
Level 10: Coolness: a Arcane trickster can take 10 on Int +3 Skills, even if treated, rushed or distracted

Spells: Gaining a new level the Roguish Wizard with Wizard as spellcasting class gains only the arcane knowledge of one new spell instead of the normal two for free. Roguish Wizards with Sorcerer as spellcasting class gain new spells (known and cast) per level normally.

I basically changed the requirements for the class.
Only three levels rogue (instead of four for the Arcane Trickster) are needed to qualify for this PrC.
I also dropped the sneak attack for other special abilities. I know that my PrC version gets Ranged Ledgermain 3/day earlier that the original (Arcane Trickster Level 9)

Let me know what you think about it.
Is it overpowered ?

yennico

Edit: Another Arcane Trickster Thread found and Spells gained per level reduced.

 

[yennico]

Perhaps a better name than Roguish Wizard for my PrC is Arcane Thief.

Just my 2 cents
yennico

Edit: spelling corrected

 

[yennico]

Spells: Gaining a new level the Roguish Wizard with Wizard as spellcasting class gains only the arcane knowledge of one new spell instead of the normal two for free. Roguish Wizards with Sorcerer as spellcasting class gain new spells (known and cast) per level normally.

This feature favors Rogue/Sorcerers.

Can somebody tell me of a similar restriction for Sorcerers ?
Minus one spell slot to cast or minus one spell known is IMHO to hard for sorcerers.

Just my 2 cents
yennico

 

[yennico]

Over 70 views and no reply

 

[Technik4]

If you are thinking that adding spells every level along with at least 1 cool ability every level, then yeah its pretty overpowered.

The thing about the original is it only gets 1 of the rogue's special abilities, sneak attack. And granted, it gets a lot of dice but its basically one "feature". You are giving a lot more "features", plus it will still have its old sneak attack progression (not as powerful as the T&B version, obviously) and you lowered the requirements!

Speaking of the requirements for an Arcane Trickster for a moment, I believe it is the best intentioned thing of the whole prc. You *must* have 4 rog levels to enter, along with 5 or 6 levels of sor or wiz, or 7 levels of bard. This explicitly means, no 9th level spells for arcane tricksters, unless they use some rules-loop-holes.

That right there is huge. Consider the Mystic Theurge, one of the preview prc from the upcoming 3.5 ruleset. The main balancing factor is that you lose 3 levels of spellcasting in your primary area.

In the same way an arcane trickster loses vital spellcasting levels, which influence spells known, caster level, SR penetration, etc etc. I would consider keeping a couple "dry" levels where no spellcasting is gained.

Pass Without Trace seems really powerful, perhaps that should be further on in the class. I would give Skill Focus as a bonus feat instead of picking the skill for them. What if I want Skill Focus - Open Locks?

I would raise the requirements so Arcane Thieves cannot cast 9th level spells.

Overall the class looks good, but it seems like it favors the bard more than sor/rog or wiz/rog as the sneak attack progression was dropped.

Technik

 

[yennico]

Hello Technik4,

If you are thinking that adding spells every level along with at least 1 cool ability every level, then yeah its pretty overpowered.

Some of the PrCs of the offical WotC books with spells every level, also have a cool ability every level (Arcane Trickster, Sacred Exorcist, Incantatrix, Guild Wizard of Waterdep, etc. )
My thoughts to build the Arcane Thief was that the Arcane thief is a powerful as the Arcane Trickster. The Arcane Thief should replace the Arcane Trickster. I know that the Arcane Trickster is a powerful or even overpowered PrC. I decided at first to make a PrC of similar niveau of power.

The thing about the original is it only gets 1 of the rogue's special abilities, sneak attack. And granted, it gets a lot of dice but its basically one "feature". You are giving a lot more "features", plus it will still have its old sneak attack progression (not as powerful as the T&B version, obviously) and you lowered the requirements!

My Arcane Thief gets no sneak attack progression. An Arcane Thief10 has still sneak attack +2D6 as a third level rogue.
I understand your point "basically one "feature" and more "features" An Arcane Trickster get only SA from the rogue, my Arcane Thief gets from the Rogue: Uncanny Dodge vs Traps and Skill mastery (named coolness).

Do you think I should drop one of these "features" ?

Speaking of the requirements for an Arcane Trickster for a moment, I believe it is the best intentioned thing of the whole prc. You *must* have 4 rog levels to enter, along with 5 or 6 levels of sor or wiz, or 7 levels of bard. This explicitly means, no 9th level spells for arcane tricksters, unless they use some rules-loop-holes.

I reduced the requirements because of two reasons:
1. SA is the most important ability in a rogue´s fighting style. With no further SA progression a Arcane Thief and a low BAB an Arcane Thief is not very effective in combat, except with spells which are weaker as from a normal single class wizard.
2. At first this PrC was designed for my rog/wiz. He is in the party the sole wizard, so he has also to take the wizards function. Later I tried to make this PrC for every party.

That right there is huge. Consider the Mystic Theurge, one of the preview prc from the upcoming 3.5 ruleset. The main balancing factor is that you lose 3 levels of spellcasting in your primary area.

That is correct. An Arcane Thief also looses bonus feats of the wizard. Compared to a single class wizard an Arcane Thief is more powerful, but an Arcane Trickster is nearly as powerful as an Arcane Thief. An Arcane Trickster excels in physical combat because of SA and an Arcane Thief in spells.

Perhaps I should lower the BAB of the Arcane Thief ?

In the same way an arcane trickster loses vital spellcasting levels, which influence spells known, caster level, SR penetration, etc etc. I would consider keeping a couple "dry" levels where no spellcasting is gained.

I think about that.
Do you think the loss of any further SA progession should not be rewarded, because of the vital part of the SA in a rogue´s fighting style ?

The main difference in spell casting abilities between the Arcane Trickster and Arcane Thief is one spellcaster level. This one level enables a Rog3/Wizard7/Arcane Thief10 to cast one 9the level spell at level 20. He is still 3 levels behind a single class spellcaster (and many of the spell casters also take a PrC ).

Ok. The Arcane Thief gains Abilities which improves his spellcasting (bonus meta Magic feat, Silent, etc.)

You think I should raise the requirements for this PrC and add some "dry" levels ?

Compare a single class wizard 17 with a wizard7/incantatrix10.
The Incantatrix is more powerful than the single class wizard.

Pass Without Trace seems really powerful, perhaps that should be further on in the class.

I will do that.

I would give Skill Focus as a bonus feat instead of picking the skill for them. What if I want Skill Focus - Open Locks?

Good point. I will change that.

I would raise the requirements so Arcane Thieves cannot cast 9th level spells.

How do you want to solve the problem: no further SA progression which degrades the vital point of a rogue´s fighting style. Which advantages a Arcane thief should get for this big disadvantage ?

Overall the class looks good, but it seems like it favors the bard more than sor/rog or wiz/rog as the sneak attack progression was dropped.

Thank you and also thank your for your reply.

Just my 2 cents
yennico

 

[Technik4]

It really depends on where you are looking at in the power curve that WotC has printed. I would say Incantrix is on the very high end, and probably wouldn't let someone play one without putting in a couple "dry" levels, to penalize them for all the cool abilities. I would also think about redoing the prerequisites to ensure that a pc knew 7 abjurations as it is supposed to be an abjuration specialist prc.

Likewise the Arcane Trickster as written is very powerful, which is why you can easily find threads about people wanting to change it; it all comes down to what you want for your campaign, most things in house rules aren't going to be published anywhere so balance is relative to your campaign. Your class isn't horribly broken in any way, its a different take on the rogue/spellcaster multiclass.

One of the hindrances of the original Arcane Trickster is a wizard's BAB, however he also has 2 good saves, fort and ref.

Remember that one 9th level spell often turns into 3 or 4. You have to factor in specialization, bonus spells, the ability to make scrolls of 9th level spells...

I think the class already has some big advantages with regards to not being able to cast a 9th level spell. It seems they can memorize every spell as if it were silent, they are difficult to track, they eventually gain skill mastery, and eventually have the highest dispel rolls (despite not being single-class wizards). They also have better saving throws, and bonuses against traps.

As I said, if its just for your campaign, its probably fine. Especially if there is no single-class wizard or sorceror to judge him by, the rog/wiz will seem on par with the other classes, maybe a little higher because he has taken a prc, which is the point anyway

Technik

 

[yennico]

Hello Technik4

It really depends on where you are looking at in the power curve that WotC has printed.

That is really a good point. I do own many of the WotC splat books and many of the PrC are more powerful than a single class character. Nearly every high level wizard will take the Archmage PrC. You get only advantages and the only real disadavantage is that you need skill focus (spellcraft).

I would say Incantrix is on the very high end,

That is really true.

and probably wouldn't let someone play one without putting in a couple "dry" levels, to penalize them for all the cool abilities.

I do not know if I would penalize the PrC with "dry" levels.
This PrC has to fight against evil, mighty outsiders, etc. I see this PrC as a Guardian of a Plane. (for Humans e.g. the Material Plane) I would change the requirements for the PrC.

I would also think about redoing the prerequisites to ensure that a pc knew 7 abjurations as it is supposed to be an abjuration specialist prc.

I agree, I would change the prerequisites to Specialist (Abjurer), so he has a prohibited school at 1st level. Also drop the Bonus meta magic feat at 5th and 10th level.
I do not know where I have read this, but abjuration is mostly aligned with lawful alignment. Pehaps I would only lawful, non evil persons allow this PrC.
Hardy Spirit is a good special ability, but it can be duplicated easily with a permanent death ward spell on the wizard.

Likewise the Arcane Trickster as written is very powerful, which is why you can easily find threads about people wanting to change it; it all comes down to what you want for your campaign, most things in house rules aren't going to be published anywhere so balance is relative to your campaign.

Th Arcane Trickster is one of the most significant PrC which is too powerful, so many persons on this board want to change the PrC .
I have not seen any changed PrC of e.g. Incantatrix on this board yet
IMC I would not allow a Mystic Theuge....
I do not think my PrC will be published
I will do two Arcane Thief PrCs: one for my character in the campaign based on the balance of the campaign and one for use in every campaign.

Your class isn't horribly broken in any way, its a different take on the rogue/spellcaster multiclass.

Thank you.

One of the hindrances of the original Arcane Trickster is a wizard's BAB, however he also has 2 good saves, fort and ref.

The same to the arcane thief.

Remember that one 9th level spell often turns into 3 or 4. You have to factor in specialization, bonus spells, the ability to make scrolls of 9th level spells...

That is true. Who really needs 9th level spells

I think the class already has some big advantages with regards to not being able to cast a 9th level spell. It seems they can memorize every spell as if it were silent, they are difficult to track, they eventually gain skill mastery, and eventually have the highest dispel rolls (despite not being single-class wizards). They also have better saving throws, and bonuses against traps.

Difficult to track can also achieved by using some magical Items (IIRC Harper pin ) or pass with out trace made permanent by a permanency spell.
Highest Dispels rolls only against some spells (Symbol, Ward, Glyph, etc.), not all spells.
A high level rogue should be able to disable this spells by disable device. I think I should drop this special ability.

Just my 2 cents
yennico

 

[yennico]

Arcane Thief aka revised Arcane Trickster
My new version for all campaigns
Here is my revised version of the Arcane Trickster presented in the WotC book “Tome and Blood”. The original arcane trickster IMHO was too much relying on the sneak attack of the rogue. Ok, the sneak attack is much lower than that of a rogue but the PrC looked to me more like a kind of arcane assassin than a thief / cat burglar.

I left out the description and the parts I left unchanged.

Description: left out because it will be nearly the same as in Tome and Blood.

Requirements:
Alignment: any non lawful
Decipher Script: 7 ranks
Disable Device: 7 ranks
Escape Artist: 7 ranks
Knowledge (Arcana): 9 ranks
Race: All
Feats: Silent Spell
Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least on spell of 3rd level or higher.

Hit Dice, Class Skills and Skill Points are unchanged

Class Feature:
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: no additional proficiencies

The bab , saves and spell progression are the same as the Arcane Trickster, I only changed the special abilities.

Level 1: Ranged Legerdemain 1x/day
Level 2: Any Skill Focus
Level 3: Uncanny dodge (+1 vs. traps)
Level 4: Bonus Metamagic Feat
Level 5:
Level 6: Uncanny dodge (+2 vs. traps)
Level 7: Ranged Ledgermain 3/day
Level 8: The Roguish Wizard gets the special ability: Pass without trace permanent. His walks are covered like he has a permanent Pass without trace spell on himself.
Level 9: Instant Metamagic: Spells with the silent spell metamagic feat can be prepared without using a higher slot
Level 10: Coolness: a Arcane trickster can take 10 on Int +3 Skills, even if treated, rushed or distracted

Spells: Gaining a new level the Roguish Wizard with Wizard as spellcasting class gains only the arcane knowledge of one new spell instead of the normal two for free. Roguish Wizards with Sorcerer as spellcasting class gain new spells (known and cast) per level normally.

Just my 2 cents
yennico

 

[yennico]

Overall the class looks good, but it seems like it favors the bard more than sor/rog or wiz/rog as the sneak attack progression was dropped.

At first I thought about the Arcane thief as a core class not as a PrC similar to the bard.
The bard has some rogue skills and some spells. If a bard would get certain spells on his spell list and some rogues skills as class skills he could be an Arcane Thief.

Just my 2 cents
yennico