Prediction: 3.5 DMs will *always* find players

[Shawn_Kehoe]

So a friend of mine and I were waxing philosophical today about the upcoming 4e. And here's one thing we agreed on: unlike AD&D 1e/2e, where it is extremely difficult to find people to play (not impossible, certainly, but difficult), D&D 3.5 is so well-loved and widely played that a 3.5 DM will never have trouble getting a game going, no matter how much 4e has "teh awesome".

I say this, by the way, as a guy who enjoys both 3.x and AD&D 2e. I remember not so long ago trying to get a Planescape game going using AD&D 2e. My group, most of whom played AD&D back in "the day", unanimously cringed and groaned and said things like, "I can't EVER go back to second edition! Ugh! Brutal!"

Honestly, I can't see players ever reacting to 3.5 that way. Five years from now, when I'm trying to start up a new 3.5 campaign, I can't imagine players going, "3.5? BRUTAL! I can't go back!"

Nah, won't happen.

Am I right?

I think that a D&D player from the year 2057 is going to find this thread one day, and they will laugh.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I saw an amazing thing a couple of months back. A group of people were playing AD&D 3.5. That is, they had all of the current books, character sheets, D&D minis etc., but watching them actually play? They weren't really using skills, they were rolling d10's for group init., they were playing with gestalt classes (aka 1/2e multiclass) ... Nobody was counting squares, nobody was vulturing for attacks of opportunity. Somebody cast a spell, and actually asked the DM what the spell did! The DM told her (and was off a bit, it was a cure spell and the DM forgot the level bonus), and the game sailed on! Reminded me of playing AD&D and Basic hybrids from back when I was a teenager.

This is not a phenomenon unique to 3.5.

In other words, you saw people playing D&D. Since the beginning, people have said that they don't worry about AoOs, using miniatures or the rest and were treated like lunatics.

It's been this way all along. It's not an AD&D thing, it's just that (as WotC seems to have figured out) that the fiddliest parts of any edition of D&D, whether it's weapon speed, encumbrance or Attacks of Opportunity, get dropped to the wayside by many players.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Two hobby shops in the St. Louis region have declared they will "not carry any 4th Edition books and will refuse to order them in" because of the anger from both the store owners and the customers about WotC creating a new edition too early just for the money and destroying so many sacred cows in 4E D&D.

When people bemoan the death of FLGS, remember genius business decisions like this one.

 

[Nail]

When people bemoan the death of FLGS, remember genius business decisions like this one.

Some businesses do well, others don't. I'll try to rememeber to check back in 3 years and see how these St. Louis FLGS did.

Anyone wanna take bets?

 

[Psion]

I don't know about that.

What, you've surveyed my local groups and mailing list and find my analysis flawed?

I do agree that the "I hate 3E D&D" levels here aren't high - but that's unsurprising, these are primarily 3E (or 3.5E or however you call it) oriented boards.

Au contraire. I find more informed questioning of the means of 3e here than just about anywhere else that it's a major topic of discussion. (RPGnet and Dragonsfoot, OTOH, have lots of uninformed questioning).

But that's not what I speak of. The tenor of online discussion groups are always full of heated debate often out of proportion with reality. What I speak of is the fact that on local mailing lists and amongst local groups, there were still people starting new 3e games.

That's not something I saw in the waning days of 2e, when getting new players was like pulling teeth.

 

[rgard]

Well, there're "4E Revolutions" springing up here in MO.

Two hobby shops in the St. Louis region have declared they will "not carry any 4th Edition books and will refuse to order them in" because of the anger from both the store owners and the customers about WotC creating a new edition too early just for the money and destroying so many sacred cows in 4E D&D.

More power to them. I plan on boycotting D&D books once 2008 begins.

Geez, that's an inane business decision on the part of the FLGSs. Let's drive some more local retail business to the internet or big box book stores??????

Razz, I don't begrudge you not buying the stuff, I probably won't buy much myself, but I hope the 2 St. Louis FLGSs change their minds for their sake.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[GVDammerung]

So a friend of mine and I were waxing philosophical today about the upcoming 4e. And here's one thing we agreed on: unlike AD&D 1e/2e, where it is extremely difficult to find people to play (not impossible, certainly, but difficult), D&D 3.5 is so well-loved and widely played that a 3.5 DM will never have trouble getting a game going, no matter how much 4e has "teh awesome".

I say this, by the way, as a guy who enjoys both 3.x and AD&D 2e. I remember not so long ago trying to get a Planescape game going using AD&D 2e. My group, most of whom played AD&D back in "the day", unanimously cringed and groaned and said things like, "I can't EVER go back to second edition! Ugh! Brutal!"

Honestly, I can't see players ever reacting to 3.5 that way. Five years from now, when I'm trying to start up a new 3.5 campaign, I can't imagine players going, "3.5? BRUTAL! I can't go back!"

Nah, won't happen.

Am I right?

IMO, you are substantially correct. I say this because 3x (including 3.0 and 3.5) was so very customizable or mod-able. "Builds" became the game within the game and were a big part of the favorable play experience for many 3x gamers. From what has been said so far, 4e will not have the plethora of PrCs, racial substitution levels, templates etc. This will, IMO, be missed by a great many people sufficient to keep an audience for 3x alive.

Hackmaster demonstrated that the 1e/2e's audience did not dry up and blow away with the advent of 3x.

I don't think 3x's audience will wither either. In fact, because the customizeable feature of 3x, the game within the game, is as compelling, almost, as the 3x game itself and so much of the experience for many anyway, I think 3x will be even more persistent.

If 4e may have an Achilles heel, I think it will be its lack of customizeable features equal to those of 3x. This alone, IMO, will keep 3x alive even after it is no longer supported by Wotc.

I suspect that, at first, 3x will get little direct 3rd party support. I suspect that within 2 years, 3rd party publishers will espy that 3x remains viable and will begin to offer support. I think it is possible that, depending on the character of that support, 3x could put a more than marginal dent in 4e's success if 4e is not as customizable as 3x.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

People keep saying that grapple is confusing, but the basics are really pretty simple. All of the complex things about grapple are complex because of moronic FAQ rulings (not an attack, not a strength check, therefore no modifiers apply except for the prone modifier for some unexplained reason) or the terrible lack of clarity with monsters grappling. (The rules for using natural attacks in a grapple, being buried in the Rake section of the monster manual glossary, for instance). In short, there's not too much to remember. Grapple isn't anywhere near as counterintuitive as THAC0 was.

That being said, after a few years, I don't think anyone is going to remember how to do things like grapple anymore... but then I don't remember THAC0- so it goes.

Vorp

 

[Maliki]

I think you're partially right. With the 3.5 SRD remaining publicly available, it's not unreasonable to expect that this version will have a slightly longer shelf life than 2e did.

That being said, there are people that can't even get a 3.5 game going right now!
-blarg

This is a good point, I actually have had little trouble getting folks to play different systems, but I am probably the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Keeper of Secrets]

Well, there're "4E Revolutions" springing up here in MO.

Two hobby shops in the St. Louis region have declared they will "not carry any 4th Edition books and will refuse to order them in" because of the anger from both the store owners and the customers about WotC creating a new edition too early just for the money and destroying so many sacred cows in 4E D&D.

More power to them. I plan on boycotting D&D books once 2008 begins.

Razz, do you think not carrying the books is a good decision or a bad one?