Predictions of the d20/gaming Industry

[EricNoah]

Not to derail the thread, but ... the editor is the chief reason I'll buy NWN. I want to put together some of my old PnP dungeons (or as close as possible) and walk through them. That's all!

 

[Lizard]

die_kluge,

Do you really think that the average game store owner doesn't know what is due out in the market?

Based on my years of experience as a regular patron of gaming stores, the average game store owner couldn't pour piss out of a boot if you told him the instructions were printed on the heel.

That's "average". There are, by definition, as many above-average as below-average. I seem to be stuck with the lower end of the bell curve. But the fact is, most gamers on the Internet, who slavishly check the webpages for their favorite companies and spend hours checking out "alt.fan.obsessive" are much more likely to know what's scheduled for release than people whose incomes depend on knowing it. Sad, but true.

 

[mmadsen]

Companies like Malhavoc Press will become the rule rather than the exception. Small companies producing PDFs with complete autonomy, but a large print publisher (Sword and Sorcery, for example) that prints and distributes the products a few months after PDF release.

I agree, 333 Dave.

There are certain basic problems in the RPG market, and this ameliorates some of them. Small amateurs (in the positive sense, meaning those who produce works out of love for the material) can't easily publish paper products, get them distributed, and get the word out that they're great. Publishers certainly don't want to shoulder the printing, distributions, and marketing burdens of a product they don't own when it's such a big risk. After all, if it tanks, they're the one's who took the risk and lost money; if it takes off, they're the one's who took the risk, but they won't see the added benefits off selling extra supplments, add-on adventures, etc., since they don't own it.

We end up in the intellectual-property quagmire where no one wants to sell their "babies" as "for hire" work (i.e. give up their rights), and no one wants to publish anything without those rights.

If electronic texts can prove themselves first, then paper publishers can swoop in and license low-risk properties, doing what they do well: publish paper products.

 

[RangerWickett]

I don't want this to sound like a plug, but it is my hope and Russ's hope that Natural 20 Press can be a vehicle to help a lot more inspired amateurs write and publish D20 material. Since all our initial releases are pdf, and since we don't have a huge staff of our own, we're willing to work on nearly any product you propose, as long as its original and well-written. It's my dream that some people who might never have written otherwise, will get their start with Nat20 and go on to become big names in the industry.

And I have my own plans as far as what to do if D20 begins to die down, but consider them a company secret.

 

[King_Stannis]

Originally posted by RyanD:


quote:
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Originally posted by Erik Mona
Books will get more expensive. And rightly so.
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Amen my brother.



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*wagging my finger* not if we don't say so. look, you can charge whatever the hell you want - just don't be surprised if no one ponies up 25 bucks for a mediocre 32 page adventure! still, you're free to try. i think if you took a poll of consumers (you remember us, right?), you'd find that the price of RPG products is at a more or less acceptable level. some too high (like bastion press), others a bargain.

and actually, it comes off sounding kind of arrogent. if you guys don't like the money in the RPG industry then you can always get another job! i'm getting a little sick of hearing the bitching and complaining about how tough it is working in the RPG field with such little financial reward. i get paid pretty good at my job....but then again, i don't get to write and play imaginary games at my job, either. it's a tad more boring. my employer also makes boatloads more money than RPG companies are capable of. you guys can't have your cake and eat it too. either take the money and go "legit" and freelance, or face the fact that you aren't getting rich in this industry but still have a pretty cool job.

but the way some people make it sound, every RPG product ever produced has been done so on the backs of poor, maltreated-but-talented writers who are shackled to their desks. i submit that if that's the case, why hasn't the whole industry collapsed years ago? it hasn't, and some of the most talented people are still involved. indeed, many are coming back!

sorry for the rant, but it really frosts me when people simply ignore the consumer.

 

[Wolfspider]

i get paid pretty good at my job....but then again, i don't get to write and play imaginary games at my job, either.

In my mind, this kind of assertion is comparable to saying that working in a bookstore or library is a dream job because all you have to do is sit around reading books. I worked in a library for several years, and I never got to read a single page while on the job. I did get to haul a lot of heavy hardback books around, though....

Designing and writing games IS hard work. It isn't all fun and games, if you'll excuse the pun. Coming up with rules and being able to express them clearly is a big part of designing a game, and this is hardly easy. Have you ever tried writing instructions? I know that people who write technical manuals get paid a lot of money; why not game designers, who have to do some of the same things, along with making an interesting setting and writing flavor text? Not to mention designing the layout of the book and editing it....

 

[RyanD]

*wagging my finger* not if we don't say so.

I believe in the Games Workshop rule of thumb. Don't stop raising prices when customers start complaining. Stop raising them when customers stop buying.

The threshold for the former is often much lower than the threshold for the latter.

If, three years ago, I told you that every RPG WotC published that wasn't D&D was going to cost US$40, I suspect that most people would have thought it was impossible. You should have seen the volume of email we got from people telling us that the US$40 cost of the FRCS was "too high".

Today, I see a $40 Star Wars, a $40 Wheel of Time, a $40 Call of Cthulhu, and a $40 FRCS. And all of those products have sold more units than budgeted.

I think perhaps WotC should try $50 and see what happens.

and actually, it comes off sounding kind of arrogent.

Arrogance is ok in my book, as long as the plan works. One person's "arrogance" is another person's "confidence in action".

if you guys don't like the money in the RPG industry then you can always get another job!

A wise man once remarked that the rational person changes themselves to match their environment, while the irrational person expects the environment to change to suit their tastes. Thus, all progress is derived from the actions of irrational people.

Rather than getting another job, I hope a bunch of irrational publishers change the industry and make it a more rewarding business.

but the way some people make it sound, every RPG product ever produced has been done so on the backs of poor, maltreated-but-talented writers who are shackled to their desks.

The fact that this is almost demonstrably true doesn't sway your opinion? The fact that time after time professionals in this industry explain that they are paid far less than they would be for doing similar work in similar industries doesn't move you? The knowledge that you are being hurt as a consumer because many talented people with a lot to contribute to the art and science of hobby game publishing choose not to do so because the return on their expenditure of time, effort and money is too low doesn't affect your opinion of the fundamental business itself?

 

[kenjib]

Fair wage in the economy is based not just on skill level, but the availability of workers. Writing RPGs is fun. People like to do it - even if they don't get paid. That means that people are willing to make less money for the job because it's fun. That's just how it works. Just saying that they should be getting paid as much as other writers because it's just as technically demanding is completely ignoring half of the picture.

The same goes for computer game programmers. They get paid less because their job is fun and that's simply how it works. Otherwise nobody would do the un-fun jobs and those jobs would have to offer more money to lure talent away from game programming companies. Then game companies are again paying less than those companies now. See what I mean?

Sure it can be hard work, but would you rather write up technical specifications for the thermal viscosity gauge of an industrial latex catheter press or write up game books? Yes I think I know the answer, and that's why one pays more than the other.

 

[King_Stannis]

The fact that this is almost demonstrably true doesn't sway your opinion? The fact that time after time professionals in this industry explain that they are paid far less than they would be for doing similar work in similar industries doesn't move you? The knowledge that you are being hurt as a consumer because many talented people with a lot to contribute to the art and science of hobby game publishing choose not to do so because the return on their expenditure of time, effort and money is too low doesn't affect your opinion of the fundamental business itself?

very funny, you use a very free-market approach with the GDW example when it suits your case (i.e. raise prices till people stop buying), and then turn around 180 degrees and expect me to care that someone who is doing something they LOVE for a living isn't making as much as someone who isn't. my emphatic answer, ryan, is NO. i could care less how much the writer of my adventure earns or what he does with the money he has. much like you probably don't care that the shirt you wore the other day was probably made in some sweat shop in china.

as far as talent drain, i don't think that's the case. name one premier RPG talent that walked away full time to pursue other things? indeed, with D20, we're seeing a flurry of people who were pushed away from the industry by TSR. in a way, you're your own worst enemy here.

as far as talent that sits on the sideline because they know beforehand there's no money in RPG's, i don't buy it. even a hack like me has tried to get RPG stuff published, and i know full well it would never be anything more than a diversion.

 

[Wolfspider]

name one premier RPG talent that walked away full time to pursue other things

John Wick.