D&D 5E (2024) Preferences in a New Official 5.5e Specific Setting

[Yaarel]

i don't know anything about Elric but i do agree 5e would benefit from a dedicated 'summoner' class.

The basic idea is, the summoner doesnt cast heal, but can summon a unicorn that can heal. Etcetera.

It is tricky to balance, but focusing on specific summon and conjure spells seems to work well.

 

[Yaarel]

There are a number of ways to do an Elric-type character in D&D. Deities and Demigods made him a multiclassed wizard/fighter, since his magic is learned, the hexblade warlock was based on Elric. You could do a fighter/artificer(alchemist) due to his reliance on potions or a ranger given his similarities to Geralt.

You don’t want players making exact clones anyway. Inspired by is fine.

Maybe if Elric is a Warlock, who has many patrons rather than a single patron. But ultimately it is the summon-conjure spells in play that matter.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

i don't know anything about Elric but i do agree 5e would benefit from a dedicated 'summoner' class.

Elric isn’t so much a summoner as someone with Gate on their spell list.

He is a noble not-elf trained in spellcasting and alchemy. He relies on potions to compensate for his frail constitution (or a soul-sucking magic sword). He has a chaos god as his patron, but spends a lot of time worrying about doing the right thing (which he usually screws up).

 

[Scott Christian]

I really don't see Elric fitting in with the swords and sorcery genre. I think the best example you can give is Conan. And probably an even more refined example would be the first Conan movie. There is actually quite a bit of magic in the movie; however, its flavor text is written differently than high fantasy.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I really don't see Elric fitting in with the swords and sorcery genre.

You want to rule out one of the genre-defining novel series from the genre?!

I think the best example you can give is Conan. And probably an even more refined example would be the first Conan movie

That swerves into mythic fantasy as much as sword and sorcery. Conan the Destroyer is more genre faithful.

. There is actually quite a bit of magic in the movie; however, its flavor text is written differently than high fantasy.

That’s the thing really, you don’t need different rules, just different flavour text.

 

[Yaarel]

Elric isn’t so much a summoner as someone with Gate on their spell list.

He is a noble not-elf trained in spellcasting and alchemy. He relies on potions to compensate for his frail constitution (or a soul-sucking magic sword). He has a chaos god as his patron, but spends a lot of time worrying about doing the right thing (which he usually screws up).

Gate implies a very high level spell.

Elric mostly does lower level stuff whose summoned creatures are less able or less willing,
like a "cat god" (Fiend Tabaxi), thus he knows different specific rituals (and preferred bribes) to get different specific creatures to assist. It is a lamp-shaded demonology. Summon and conjure spells represent the concept well enough.

To reflavor a High Elf for the royal family works well enough. Alternatively, use one of the Human two background feats to grant magical education.

 

[Remathilis]

And player buy-in, which is probably the hard bit.

This. Oh my God this!

2nd edition settings tried to bludgeon you into the genre tropes with major changes to the game, almost always punitive, as a way of controlling the players and forcing them into genre against their will. Dark Sun and Ravenloft are probably the best two examples of this, with Dragonlance a close third.

Unfortunately, the mindset persists that the only way to enforce genre is to limit options to a handful of pre approved selections and rigidly deny anything else. Personally, I've had better luck with giving interesting additional options rather than denying them. You want a setting where materials are common and casters rare? Give martials.cool new options to try, don't penalize a player for wanting to be a caster.

 

[Scott Christian]

You want to rule out one of the genre-defining novel series from the genre?!

I realize and acknowledge Moorcock's contributions to the sword and sorcery literature genre. But TTRPGs are not novels, as many on here are so aptly to point out. They are games. And games are influenced just as much, if not more, by cinema and pop-culture. I have only read one Manga in my life, yet I can explain a few defining elements of the genre based on Animes I have seen (of which is very little). The point is, the genre does not sit inside novels. It sits inside people's heads, and my guess is many more people saw the Conan movie than read Howard's novels.

That swerves into mythic fantasy as much as sword and sorcery. Conan the Destroyer is more genre faithful.

Which brings us to Conan the Barbarian vs Conan the Destroyer. Much of sword and sorcery's defining elements come from the fact that it is a warrior facing, not world ending antagonists, but more local and focused antagonists. It also rarely uses a comic relief character. And, of course, the protagonists often fail. Conan the Barbarian had all of that. Conan the Destroyer went against all of it - which is why it has a completely different tone and mood.

That is why I said Conan the Barbarian is the definition of the genre. More than Howard's books. Certainly more than Elric. He is the definition, for good or bad. He literally was an outcast, sought revenge, failed, and then succeeded after great personal loss. That is sword and sorcery.

And the magic was subtle and mysterious, not overly explained:

• The witch needing his seed; turning into a ball of fire and flying away
• Thulsa Doom's shapechanging ability; his ability to hypnotize and cast control person
• Mako's ritual to bring Conan back from the dead
• Valeria's paladin amulet that brought her ghost back to protect Conan from a killing blow (again he lost the fight without help)
• Even Conan's famous prayer to Crom making the audience guess whether it was divinity that brought Valeria back or her love

That’s the thing really, you don’t need different rules, just different flavour text.

In my original post, I stated one of the things the blurb or rule-changes needed to do was:

show DMs and players how to adjust flavor text

But there more to it than that.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I realize and acknowledge Moorcock's contributions to the sword and sorcery literature genre. But TTRPGs are not novels, as many on here are so aptly to point out. They are games. And games are influenced just as much, if not more, by cinema and pop-culture. I have only read one Manga in my life, yet I can explain a few defining elements of the genre based on Animes I have seen (of which is very little). The point is, the genre does not sit inside novels. It sits inside people's heads, and my guess is many more people saw the Conan movie than read Howard's novels.

Which brings us to Conan the Barbarian vs Conan the Destroyer. Much of sword and sorcery's defining elements come from the fact that it is a warrior facing, not world ending antagonists, but more local and focused antagonists. It also rarely uses a comic relief character. And, of course, the protagonists often fail. Conan the Barbarian had all of that. Conan the Destroyer went against all of it - which is why it has a completely different tone and mood.

That is why I said Conan the Barbarian is the definition of the genre. More than Howard's books. Certainly more than Elric. He is the definition, for good or bad. He literally was an outcast, sought revenge, failed, and then succeeded after great personal loss. That is sword and sorcery.

And the magic was subtle and mysterious, not overly explained:

• The witch needing his seed; turning into a ball of fire and flying away
• Thulsa Doom's shapechanging ability; his ability to hypnotize and cast control person
• Mako's ritual to bring Conan back from the dead
• Valeria's paladin amulet that brought her ghost back to protect Conan from a killing blow (again he lost the fight without help)
• Even Conan's famous prayer to Crom making the audience guess whether it was divinity that brought Valeria back or her love

In my original post, I stated one of the things the blurb or rule-changes needed to do was:

But there more to it than that.

This is more a description of what you like, rather than the generally accepted definition.

 

[Minigiant]

Sword and Sorcery Rant:

IMHO, Sword and Sorcery is about the protagonist dealing with personal and local wins and losses which can be ugly or costly. This is easy with warriors because they typically don't scale that fast outside the local as quickly. Skill users are based on author scale.. But isn't not impossible with spellcasters.

D&D stops being local and personal after level 7 or so. Especially post 3e. You can force it by limiting goes to material plane monsters and limiting magic spells but it gets boring

This is because it's hard to make the mechanic part of sword and sorcery interesting it gets stale because you personalize everything and does you limit the lot louder options your characters have and eventually you will repeat yourself. Therefore you end up either doing things outside of the books or you require a skilled DM/GM to craft story that keeps the excitement up in lieu of the stale mechanical play.

This is why sword and sorcery are not popular game settings for RPG play when there's any competition. The only worked back in the day when there weren't as many rules and rule sets to compete with that style of setting. The second another style of setting appeared sort of sorcery became unpopular.

And that's the rub you're not going to make any money with sword and sorcery if the only playable style of characters are low complexity warriors and "thieves". You must allow spell casters or technology users or some kind of advanced martial arts or skill system in the game in order to spice it up as the game goes.

Because you're not going to sell many copies if a game setting where everything is personal if the persons are mechanically boring. Because if all of the interesting parts or outside of the game then they don't need to buy your game.