Prerequisites for Multiclassing

[Quickleaf]

I mean, a team of dungeon delvers clear cutting their way through a bottomless labrynth is going to take a much short time, in game, than the group walking halfway across the world, even with the same number of encounters per session.

Gah! Sure, if you use the experience rules in the DMG, that might be true. But who uses those, honestly?

A feat does seem a little hefty, but I think that if you really want to multiclass, it means taking a hit to show that your character is doing something to work toward mastering magic, etc... i'll have to think on the skill thing, though I agree that Know (Arcana) is a better choice than Craft (Alchemy).

Well, by only requiring a feat for a character multi-classing in fighter, ranger and monk, you're essentially making it harder for PCs to multi-class in these 3 military classes. Which seems ass-backwards from most fantasy games where the wizards are the ones with lots of training. So long as that's what you're shooting for... Otherwise, you should require a feat for any and all classes multi-classed in.

E.g. For Wizard the required feat would be Scribe Scroll. Perhaps for Ranger it would be Track or Weapon proficiency (Martial). But then you have classes like Bard, Rogue, and Sorcerer - I mean, what feat is universal for them in the same sense that Scribe Scroll is universal for wizards?

 

[Reynard]

E.g. For Wizard the required feat would be Scribe Scroll. Perhaps for Ranger it would be Track or Weapon proficiency (Martial). But then you have classes like Bard, Rogue, and Sorcerer - I mean, what feat is universal for them in the same sense that Scribe Scroll is universal for wizards?

Okay. I see what you are saying. Interesting.

On an intuitive level -- for me -- it makes sense to require a feat given for free at first level as a prerequisite, if only because those free 1st level feats represent all the study and training the character ebdured as a "0 level" character prior to game start. But not all classes are equal in that regard, especially if you take into account prerequisites for some of those free feats.

Solution?: My original idea was simply to require a number of ranks of skills (in 2's for individual skills) equal to what a class gets per level in class skills for the class you are joining. So, for example, in order to multiclass into Rogue, you simply need 8 skill ranks -- minimum of 2 in any 1 skill -- in Rogue class skills. This means that classes that are similar in nature - ie have similar numbers of skill points and similar class skills -- are easier to muticlass from and to.

 

[Afrodyte]

I brought up the idea a couple of months ago, and it seemed pretty cool. I think I did it for 1st-level classes too. I think I did. In retrospect, one of the ideas I would have put on there is that you don't get any class abilities until you meet the requisites. Unfortunately, I can't search to find what I did with the thread.

 

[Quickleaf]

Reynard,
Assuming all classes are equal...
4 skill points = 1 feat = +1 BAB
I would value any restrictions at 1 skill point each
I think a good target is 8 skill points to gain access to a class.

For example...

Barbarian: Weapon proficiency (martial), and +1 BAB
Fighter: Weapon proficiency (martial), and +1 BAB
Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike, and +1 BAB
Paladin: Weapon proficiency (martial) or +1 BAB, Knowledge (religion) +2, Patron deity, Alignment restriction
Ranger: Weapon proficiency (martial) or Track, 2 skills, each with at least 2 ranks from the ranger class skills

Bard: 4 skills, each with at least 2 ranks, from the list of bard class skills.
Rogue: 4 skills, each with at least 2 ranks, from the list of rogue class skills.

Sorcerer: Perhaps a latent bloodline feat? Which allows you to multi-class as a sorcerer?
Wizard: Scribe Scroll, Knowledge(arcana) +2, Spellcraft +2

 

[Nifft]

I'd make things theme-oriented rather than formulaic. Also, note that BAB +1 is not a useful pre-req, since even a Wizard will have that by level 2.

To enter Fighter, you need:
- Weapon Focus (any)

To enter Bard, you need:
- 3 ranks in each of two different Performs, or
- 3 ranks in each of three Knowleges, or
- Skill Focus: Perform (any), or
- Skill Focus: Knowlege (any) and Magical Aptitude.

To enter Wizard, you need:
- 4 ranks each Spellcraft and Knowlege (Arcana), or
- 3 ranks each Spellcraft, Craft (Alchemy), and Decypher Script, or
- One of those three-cantrip-per-day Feats from Complete Arcane.

To enter Sorcerer, you need:
- 4 ranks each Concentration & Use Magic Device, and the ability to speak Draconic, or
- Magical Aptitude, 4 ranks Concentration & the ability to speak Draconic, or
- One of those three-cantrip-per-day Feats from Complete Arcane.

To enter Barbarian, you need any two of the following:
- 4 ranks Survival
- Athletic
- Great Fortitude
- Run
- Toughness

To enter Rogue, you need any three of the following:
- Stealthy
- Deceitful
- Investigator
- Lightning Reflexes
- Skill Focus (Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Disable Device, or Search)
- 3 ranks each Hide & Move Silently
- 3 ranks each Spot & Sleight of Hand
- 3 ranks each Search & Disable Device
- 3 ranks each Bluff & Forgery
- 3 ranks each Open Lock & Listen

To enter Druid, you need 3 ranks each Handle Animal, Heal, Kn(Nature) and Survival, and any one of the following:
- Iron Will
- Track
- Self-Sufficient
- Skill Focus (Handle Animal, Heal, Kn(Nature) or Survival)

To enter Ranger, you need Track, 3 ranks Survival, and any one of the following:
- 3 ranks each Hide & Move Silently, or
- 3 ranks each Listen & Spot, or
- 3 ranks each Heal & Kn(Nature), or
- Stealthy, or
- Self-Sufficient.

To enter Cleric or Paladin, you need 4 ranks Knowledge (Religion).

To enter Monk, you need 3 ranks each Tumble, Jump & Balance, and any one of the following:
- 6 ranks each Concentration & Kn(Religion), or
- Improved Unarmed Strike, or
- Lightning Reflexes, or
- Dodge & Mobility.


... but IMHO if you're going to penalize multi-classing like this, you should give a little bonus at 1st level, based on class. (1st character level, not 1st class level if they multi-class.)

Barbarian: Toughness
Bard: 4 ranks Perform in two different instruments
Cleric: 4 ranks Kn(Religion)
Druid: 2 ranks each Survival & Kn(Nature)
Fighter: Weapon Focus (any Simple or Martial weapon)
Monk: 4 ranks Concentration
Paladin: 4 ranks Kn(Religion)
Ranger: 2 ranks each Survival and Kn(Nature)
Rogue: Skill Focus (any)
Sorcerer: 4 ranks Concentration
Wizard: 4 ranks Spellcraft

Yes, these are all things they probably would have taken anyway... but that's kinda the point. Now they can spend their 1st level Feats & Skill points on stuff to make them more individual.

Cheers, -- N

 

[fiache]

I like this -- though I agree low skill point classes suffer from this most. And as I played in a game where the Ref didn't do any sort of restrictions it was quit annoying to join the group as a Cleric while everyone else was a Rog/X with skills up the wazoo.

Maybe there should be a more level playing field at first level. Perhaps first level characters start with 16 + class amount and INT mod * 2? Of course then those Fighter types get a real boost, and Rogues get leveled out with no compensation. But that might not be a bad thing.

Or maybe a skill point cost for some of the special abilities of each class (class only "skills") and until purchased the character doesn't bennefit from them. The cost would have to be low but reasonable to make up for the disparity of special abilities, skill points available, etc as compared to an "out of the box untweaked" character.

Now you multi class and don't immediately gain all those new special abilities. Training time should also be allowed to fill in for skill points, the character goes off to train for a while (spends a lot of money) and earns X skill points to be used on special class abilities.

But now you also have to address the variance in skill points for each class per level. Does it really require a fight 6 skill points (the difference between Rogue and Fighter SP's/level) per level to earn a feat every other level? Or the same amount for Wizards and Sorcerers to sift through old tomes and find new spells?

Maybe skill points are an arbitrary measure of off -time, but then shouldn't each character start with a similar amount? Obviously smarter characters will learn faster which is covered by the Int Mod addition.
​

But I degress. Perhaps a way to soften the blow of prereqs for multi-classing, allow the character to re-compute the requisite skills (and only those skills at those levels) as class skills once the character has progressed through 1 level of the class. And likewise allow any feat requirements that are earned free by the class to be re-assigned after the 1 level gain. Would initially weaken the multi-class character a little but over time he would catch up with his peers.

Just a thought or two... enjoy

...

 

[Nifft]

Barbarian: Weapon proficiency (martial), and +1 BAB
Fighter: Weapon proficiency (martial), and +1 BAB
Paladin: Weapon proficiency (martial) or +1 BAB, Knowledge (religion) +2, Patron deity, Alignment restriction
Ranger: Weapon proficiency (martial) or Track, 2 skills, each with at least 2 ranks from the ranger class skills

Does "weapon proficiency (martial)" mean any martial, or all martial? If the latter, I think that's kinda restrictive.

-- N

 

[Reynard]

I'd make things theme-oriented rather than formulaic. Also, note that BAB +1 is not a useful pre-req, since even a Wizard will have that by level 2.

snip

The thing is, I don't want people to not be able to multiclass at level 2 or 3, I am just looking for some mechanical backing for the concept of the fighter/mage or rogue/cleric types. So, if players spend some of their starting skills points and or feats, or are part of a class that is already "close" (like say ranger to rogue, or barbarian ot fighter), they can make the jump without nerfing them. it isn't a penalty for multiclassing, just a thematic mechanic (thechanic?).

 

[Nifft]

The thing is, I don't want people to not be able to multiclass at level 2 or 3, I am just looking for some mechanical backing for the concept of the fighter/mage or rogue/cleric types.

The only thing I'd look out for is making some classes easier than others, unless that's what you want to do. "BAB +1" is NOT a real restriction, while the Monk's price of entry is very high -- one totally wasted Feat.

(Consider an Elf Wizard 2 -- he cannot avoid qualifying for Fighter!)

-- N

 

[Reynard]

The only thing I'd look out for is making some classes easier than others, unless that's what you want to do. "BAB +1" is NOT a real restriction, while the Monk's price of entry is very high -- one totally wasted Feat.

(Consider an Elf Wizard 2 -- he cannot avoid qualifying for Fighter!)

-- N

I think you are right about BAB. Maybe fighters should be required to have Medium Armor and Martial Weapon?

As far as the monk and the wasted feat goes, Monks were the one clas where I was very much thinking "must take Monk at 1st level" and then nixing the multiclass restrictions from monk (and paladins, but I generally don't think those restrictions add anything to the game in the first place).

Ultimately, I guess I am seeing it like this: if the player is planning on multiclassing at second level (ie would have created the multiclass character if we would have started at 2nd -- which is what I would likely do anyway for any number of good reasons) then it is reasonable for their 1dt level characters, representing the character after post adolescent training, have some semblance of skills inherent in the class. For later levels, it might reduce the 'spot multiclassing' (ie "I need more skill points for my Dwarven Defender - a level of Rogue, here I come!") it does cut into optimization though, which is part of the game given how many choices and resources the players have available for their characters.