Preserving the Sweet Spot - A Rebuttal

[Psion]

If I were searching for meaning, I wouldn't start with the chicken-and-egg argument: that more people aren't playing high-level games because there isn't adequate support for it, and there isn't adequate support for it because not enough folks are playing it.

I'd read the information in the simplest and most direct way possible: "Sweet Spot" D&D is more popular because it's the better game.

I think you should recognize that a vicious cycle does exist, and peoples' history and preferences are a factor:
1) Players historically express a preference for starting at first or low levels. Couple that with limited campaign duration caused by real life factors and attention span, this naturally limits the levels of characters.
2) Prior editions rarely supported play past 12th level or so. Some players have not become used to the notion of play at hight levels.

I note that despite this, I see more players playnig and enjoying higher level games, and I frequently see postings requesting adventures for higher level games, which indicates to me that this segment is under-catered to.

 

[Imagicka]

Greetings…

I think, simply because of the fact that a 13th+ campaign is so hard to design for a ‘generic’ group of characters (and who has a bunch of high-level generic characters?) Coupled with the idea that by the time your running a campaign where your players are in the higher levels, that most GMs aren’t looking for an OotB campaign.

That each gaming group would be relatively unique, have enough personal history, and personal interests in where they want to take their game that most aren’t looking for the generic one shot… or even extended campaign series of adventures.

Not to mention, it’s a lot of hard work to design something that large, like an extended campaign. Of course, game designers could always put out something where they do 10% of the work, and then expect their buyers to put in the rest of the 90%+ work and effort into the game and then claim that they have a great product like it was the world’s largest dungeon, or something equally as stupid.

Well, there is an NPC wiki somewhere. Why…yes… here it is. http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page But I can’t seem to find a Monster Wiki. Maybe someone should start a Wiki Monster Repository.

 

[TomWhitbrook]

There's another alternative.

The vast majority of campaigns begin at 1st level. Because of the structure of the XP progression, the low levels tend to pass quite quickly, taking people into the 'sweet spot' fairly soon.

Games then run for a while, until ended by a TPK, the successful completion of the campaign, the dissolution of the group, boredom sets in, or whatever. At which point, they probably start again at 1st level.

The consequence of this is that you'll have a significant number of people playing at low-level, a certain number playing at medium level, and a small number playing at high level. Because to get to high level, the campaigns will have progressed through medium and low level, and will have had to avoid TPK, boredom, or real life.

The thing is, this says nothing about the quality of the rules or play experience at high-level. It merely reflects the likely statistical distribution of campaigns, based on a model starting at 1st level and running for a random length of time.

Unless I'm wrong about the majority of campaigns starting at 1st level, of course. But I would be willing to bet that starting levels are skewed heavily towards the lower end of the spectrum.

I'd say that this is probably the more likely cause of the position of the percieved "sweet spot". I think it is actually less of the sweet spot and more of the "common spot", where most campaigns tap out. Taking a campaign to high levels requires a rather epic amount of commitment on the part of all its participants, but I would say that those campaigns I've been part of that have reached this level have been no less fun than those in the mid level ranges, and in a lot of ways a great deal more enjoyable. It's true that there are a lot of PC abilities that invalidate certain adventure design concepts that are common at lower levels, but the advancement of PC abilities opens up a great deal of adventure options that simply arent available at lower power levels.

 

[Hussar]

Not to mention, it’s a lot of hard work to design something that large, like an extended campaign. Of course, game designers could always put out something where they do 10% of the work, and then expect their buyers to put in the rest of the 90%+ work and effort into the game and then claim that they have a great product like it was the world’s largest dungeon, or something equally as stupid.

Funny. I use the WLD and have my prepwork for my 13th level party done until sometime after Christmas. 10%? Huh? Considering most people point to stat-blocks as a huge time sink, having 1600+ stat blocks ready made would make me think that a lot more of the grunt work is done for you. The only thing I have to worry about now is fluff. That's the fun stuff.

 

[Psion]

Funny. I use the WLD and have my prepwork for my 13th level party done until sometime after Christmas. 10%? Huh? Considering most people point to stat-blocks as a huge time sink, having 1600+ stat blocks ready made would make me think that a lot more of the grunt work is done for you. The only thing I have to worry about now is fluff. That's the fun stuff.

I use Dungeon in a similar capacity.

That said, I like spinning interesting, powerful creatures, and do that as well.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

For my part, I think 3.x has expanded the sweet spot quite a bit. I'd say in 3.x, it reaches all the way up to level 14 or so.

That said, I think the biggest challenge to running a good high level campaign is the idea that high level characters are simply "high powered" characters. They're not or at least they shouldn't be. High level characters should be the heroes of legend. They don't fight unnamed opponents. They don't serve minor lords or dukes. They should be shaking the foundations of the campaign world when they move and everything should change with them. I think Sepulchrave's story hour is a good example of what a high level campaign should be like. The characters and their decisions drive the campaign world, not vise versa. Unfortunatly, that's a little difficult to capture in a traditional module and presents an inherent difficulty for producing support for high level campaigns. (Which is probably why there is far less non-mechanical support for high level campaigns than for lower level ones).

 

[Raven Crowking]

Funny. I use the WLD and have my prepwork for my 13th level party done until sometime after Christmas. 10%? Huh? Considering most people point to stat-blocks as a huge time sink, having 1600+ stat blocks ready made would make me think that a lot more of the grunt work is done for you. The only thing I have to worry about now is fluff. That's the fun stuff.

Personally, I would have to do a lot of work to run WLD again. I would say that I'd end up around the 10%/90% mark. Mind you, that doesn't make WLD a bad product -- I've already agreed that it has all the depth required to spin a campaign around. However, I would re-write nearly every room description, as well as descriptions for all of the "empty" areas. A fun task, I'll agree....but also a darn big one.

On your main topic, my house rules use a base 1-30 range for character levels. No "epic" levels (though you can gain your first "epic" feat at 5th level), and I simply removed or altered anything that would destroy the game for me. Piece of cake.

BTW, anyone looking for good high-level critters ought to be reading Blackdirge's advanced monsters. Great stuff!


RC

 

[Destil]

In game, one player got a kick out of realizing this. He went searching in Sharn for a high level magic item to purchase. NO ONE had it. He asked who would be best to commision it from, and the NPC recommended the party's Artificer. The Artificer had the biggest grin on his face when hearing this.

WOW! I love it. Consider this stolen for my Eberron game!

 

[Hussar]

Re: The World's Largest Dungeon.

Thinking about this, I really wonder what people expect from support. Every encounter in the WLD has a full stat block (frequently of advanced monsters), a description, a tactics section and treasure.

While you might not like what's there, that doesn't mean that the support isn't there. That you, RC, might want to rewrite the module is fine. But, I think you'll agree, you certainly don't have to. And, even then, rewriting the room descriptions, while taking a long time, certainly requires no actual rules mechanics skill.

Mechanically, the WLD supports high level play very strongly. Whether you actually like it or not is another matter.

On a side note - The "empty" areas only actually occur in two or three of the 15 sections. My group went through A - B - C - F - G - K and now J. In those seven sections, there aren't actually any empty areas.

 

[Raven Crowking]

While you might not like what's there, that doesn't mean that the support isn't there. That you, RC, might want to rewrite the module is fine. But, I think you'll agree, you certainly don't have to. And, even then, rewriting the room descriptions, while taking a long time, certainly requires no actual rules mechanics skill.

Actually, I think that I would have to re-write the room descriptions. For example, I think that the room descriptions should convey, roughly, some sense of the conditions that apply in the room. OTOH, I do agree that this isn't a necessity (barring a few choice rooms) for every DM. I am quite keen on many of the stat blocks provided, and I certainly feel that the money is worth the product. The Room Conditions, for example, are a great idea. I would end up doing mechanical work, personally, because I love tweaking things, although I don't think it is strictly required.


RC