Preserving the Sweet Spot - A Rebuttal

[Crothian]

Is this sweet spot a self fullfilling prophecy? I played with a group that always said they could never hold a campaign above 9th level. And it turned out they were right. But when I ran with some of them we didn't have that problem becasue I never try to limit the game by thinking it is no fun at a certain level.

 

[Cor Azer]

Is this sweet spot a self fullfilling prophecy? I played with a group that always said they could never hold a campaign above 9th level. And it turned out they were right. But when I ran with some of them we didn't have that problem becasue I never try to limit the game by thinking it is no fun at a certain level.

I definitely agree that it's self-fulfilling. Some people just get bored at a certain point and want to change things up - generally I try to suggest ways they can do it with their current character (after all, in the real world, many people change their life goals every day), but I obviously never force things.

I don't know if it's related or not to the self-fulfilling part, but I also find that it's somewhat linked to real-life issues as well - most of my campaigns that die do so because real life concerns take players away (jobs, school, kids, etc.) and when they return they've lost interest in the old campaign and want to try something new. Coincidentally, this almost always happens around the same time each year, and since we almost always tend to start around first level, and gain levels at a standard rate, but the time the busy lives intrude, we're always around 10th level and the process repeats.

 

[paradox42]

...Aaand here come the Upper_Krust acolytes to the fray. Honestly, how long could it be before one of us showed up in a thread like this? This time I'll be the one to bite.

Lacking high-CR monsters? Check out the Epic Bestiary Volume I for critters ranging from CR 6 (Diamond Guardian) all the way up to the stratospheric, all-but-incomprehensible CR 9721 Neutronium Golem (though in recent posts in the Eternity Publishing forum Upper_Krust suggests that this number needs revision down to "only" 1100 or so). In between you'll find remnants of the original inhabitants of Hell, several new Abominations to frighten Epic characters with, an extension of Dire creature rules so you can inflate beasts to city-size and beyond, mighty dragons born with the universe itself and woven into its very fabric, and more ideas and supplemental rules to help a high-level game than any book I've seen since the ELH itself. It's got Epic items, including artifacts, new Epic feats, a new special material, and rules to extend the game's existing size rules to infinity if you want critters that big.

There's a reason a whole section of the d20 NPC Wiki is using the rules and ideas from this book, folks. Seriously, check it out. I've used several creatures from this book in my Epic game (currently at 28th level) already, and been very satisfied with the results. Also, those in the Creature Catalog forums may have seen a little beast called the Mortiverse, which is largely based on the Immortal's Handbook rules and ideas.

Now, it is true that a few things in the Bestiary refer to books U_K's writing which aren't done yet, most notably Ascension which will contain complete rules for statting up gods, servants of gods, Overgods, and even beings beyond the oVergods. He is, however, working on that now, and scuttlebutt is that Mongoose Publishing's new Flaming Cobra imprint will be publishing a print version of the Immortal's Handbook series sooner or later (though there apparently isn't an actual scheduled release date for Epic Bestiary Volume I, the first in the series, as yet). Other books in PDF form will presumably be published under the same imprint as time and publishing vagaries permit.

 

[kenobi65]

4) Save or Die was replaced with Save or Dying (-5 hps).

Cool. "Save or Die" is one of my least-favorite concepts in D&D.

Yoink!

 

[Crothian]

Cool. "Save or Die" is one of my least-favorite concepts in D&D.

Yoink!

We do save or -9, that way one is realyl close to death but still can be saved.

 

[Fieari]

let me emphasized the d20npc wiki, located in my signature. If you want to play at high levels, the wiki is the way to go. It is the online resource requested above that contains advanced monsters, statted out high-level NPCs with class levels, and other such things. And it just keeps growing...

Hopefully, soon, there will be more high level content than low level content for just the reasons described above, that everything low-level can be advanced into high level (but it rarely works the other way around). As of now, we're just gaining ground, but soon... soon! More stuff keeps getting added every day.

 

[Aaron L]

Rebuttal? Why does it require a rebutall at all? A rebuttal implies a debate. Where's the debate here? Oh right, high-level play is better than low-level play.

Essentially, that's what these discussions always come down to. Even though it's not explicitly stated, the overtones of these discussions are always "my game is better than your game". The AP thread has the same thing. Heck, there was one post that suggested that the reason some people that don't like high-level play is because they don't understand it and they need to learn. Give me a break.

So I will be explicit:

High-level play sucks. In my opinion, it's for munchkins and twinks who are more concerned with math than a cinematic game.

Is that true? Of course not. But it illustrates my point. It doesn't matter what I think. Play the game the way you want.

If I recall, Wulf's thread was about preserving the sweet spot for those who defined the sweet spot as mid-level play and wanted to extend that gameplay experience.

I also don't think the thread started out with a statement damning high-level game and those that play it.

A rebuttal? No. This is not a rebuttal. This is a sermon to convince those that don't like high-level play that yours is the one true way.

What is it with people going out of thier way to be offended the last few days, anyway?

 

[Lanefan]

Cool. "Save or Die" is one of my least-favorite concepts in D&D.

Yep - I prefer skipping the "save" step and going straight to "die"...

Seriously, though, high-level characters aren't going to have their mortality threatened very often - if at all - by straight damage...so how else to put any real fear into 'em? The RAW don't allow for much item/possession destruction (players, being in general a greedy lot, *hate* losing items), so that's out unless via houserule; and level-draining sure ain't what it used to be. So that leaves death, and save-or-die.

Lanefan

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I really need to get a look at Legends of Avednu or whatever that epic monster book is called; I hate to buy it sight unseen, but it sounds like it's got a lot of useful stuff in it.

That reminds me: I have that book as PDF! They were giving it away one time. You got a copy, had to look at it and thell them what you think.

 

[Crothian]

I really need to get a look at Legends of Avednu or whatever that epic monster book is called; I hate to buy it sight unseen, but it sounds like it's got a lot of useful stuff in it.

Here's a few reviews of the PDF by some very trustworthy reviewers, and one by me Enjoy!!