Preserving the Sweet Spot - A Rebuttal

[Psion]

And, that, right there I think is the big kicker. We love D&D because it allows us to tweak, customize, apply touch up, detail, and whatever our character's to a degree that is astonishing. But, for the poor DM, it's a bloody jungle.

As I said, a few Uber Monster Manuals would go a long way to fixing this problem. Being able to open a book, and use the creature on the page is a HUGE help.

Ok, I think we've actually found a topic that everyone pretty much agrees with. Can I get a

Hell Ya!

 

[Pants]

The problem comes where you have to do a custom job, either adding class levels to a creature or creating a unique monster in the first place (and, virtually all true dragons are unique monsters in that respect, although the Draconomicon is a big help here).

And to think, some folks were whining about how those sample dragons were useless. I've used them, they're pretty handy.

Seriously, though, high-level characters aren't going to have their mortality threatened very often - if at all - by straight damage...so how else to put any real fear into 'em?

Really? I've DMed a game up to level 14-15ish and the sheer amount of damage that most creatures of that level can dish out is purely amazing. Factor in Huge-sized creatures with Improved Grab and any combination involving constrict or damage-per-grapple and many adventurers get reduced to pasty smears on dungeon floors.

Save-or-die has also always been one of my least favorite aspects of high level play and one that I've struggled to fix for a long time, even lthough I've only once killed a player with a SOD effect (the rest were from hugely massive amounts of damage, player stupidity, and level drain).

I think that one reason SOD may irritate so many people is because it all comes down to that one die roll. You've been building up that character for so long and, on one bad roll, you're reduced to sitting back and watching the game play out until someone can gather your corpse and rez you. It's also a decidedly less cinematic way of dying as opposed to making a stand-off against a bunch of angry fire giants or going toe-to-toe with a PO'd Glabrezu.

As for the OT: Hell yeah! A lot more 'high level-centric' material and advice would go a long way towards making high-level gaming easier. Prep time is the biggest killer, both for DM's AND players, though obviously DM's get the pointier end of the deal. An AP that 'ends' at level 12 is really not helping the current lack of high-level exclusive content, which is a lot harder to prepare than lower level stuff. Besides, D&D goes to 20 levels (and beyond even!), why ignore that part of the game? It's a lot easier to ignore stuff that you don't like than it is to create your own material.

 

[blargney the second]

4) Save or Die was replaced with Save or Dying (-5 hps).

What a difference a gerund made.

I shortened it for brevity in my first post; we're actually going with a marginally more granular system. An unimpeded death spell leaves you at zero minus spell level hps. (ie -4 for phantasmal killer, -9 for power word kill) A failed save vs massive damage leaves you at -8, and anything else will be CR/2 to a max of -9.

 

[Arkham]

All the people asking for more high level adventures ARE supporting Goodman Games, yes?

They have seven adventures above level 12, including an epic module.

I see a lot of people in threads on ENWorld asking for more content they're already not buying anyway.

They have an epic module? *checks site* Why couldn't that have been out when I was looking for epic modules? :-(

 

[MerricB]

At the moment, I think that the upcoming 4e (upcoming in terms of I expect it within 5 years...) will handle high levels even better than 3e does. And one factor in this is the experience provided by Paizo in their Adventure Paths.

Others have noted the difficulty in plugging-in high level adventures to campaigns. However, that is not something that is faced by the APs. They present a storyline that uses all of the levels 1-20. This can only serve to heighten the appreciation of these higher levels and what is required for them to function more effectively.

Cheers!

 

[Hussar]

Rebuttal? Why does it require a rebutall at all? A rebuttal implies a debate. Where's the debate here? Oh right, high-level play is better than low-level play.

Essentially, that's what these discussions always come down to. Even though it's not explicitly stated, the overtones of these discussions are always "my game is better than your game". The AP thread has the same thing. Heck, there was one post that suggested that the reason some people that don't like high-level play is because they don't understand it and they need to learn. Give me a break.

So I will be explicit:

High-level play sucks. In my opinion, it's for munchkins and twinks who are more concerned with math than a cinematic game.

Is that true? Of course not. But it illustrates my point. It doesn't matter what I think. Play the game the way you want.

If I recall, Wulf's thread was about preserving the sweet spot for those who defined the sweet spot as mid-level play and wanted to extend that gameplay experience.

I also don't think the thread started out with a statement damning high-level game and those that play it.

A rebuttal? No. This is not a rebuttal. This is a sermon to convince those that don't like high-level play that yours is the one true way.

No, this was not intended as a wrong bad fun post. However, I noticed in the threads I linked to that people were trumpeting the idea that low and mid level play is superior. Take a look at the Adventure Path threads on the main page right now and you'll see several posters talking about how a 1-12 AP would be better than 1-20 because high level play sucks.

My point isn't that low level play sucks. It doesn't. I really enjoy the 1-12 levels. What I want though is to enjoy the OTHER half of the PHB where we finally get to do all the really funky stuff.

I'm of the opinion, and this is only my opinion, that high level play gets a very bad rap because people have such a difficult time adjusting to high level play - yes, the rules are a lot more to digest and people have to learn to deal with that before they can enjoy high level play. That's not an insult, that's simple truth. It's difficult to enjoy any game when a person has difficulty grasping the rules.

Whizbang Dustyboots mentions that Goodman Games has seven high level modules. Seven out of FORTY modules. That's how much support high level gaming gets. Less than 1 in 5 modules goes level 13+. Of course people prefer lower levels, that's where 80% of the support is.

Why should half the game get four times more support?

/editted for fixing numbers

 

[Hussar]

Yep - I prefer skipping the "save" step and going straight to "die"...

Seriously, though, high-level characters aren't going to have their mortality threatened very often - if at all - by straight damage...so how else to put any real fear into 'em? The RAW don't allow for much item/possession destruction (players, being in general a greedy lot, *hate* losing items), so that's out unless via houserule; and level-draining sure ain't what it used to be. So that leaves death, and save-or-die.

Lanefan

High level characters get whacked by straight up damage LOTS. I remember seeing a 15th level monk obliterated in a single round by a CR 15 Fire Giant without any crits or terribly high rolls. High CR creatures are dumping in 100+ points of damage per round without any real difficulty. While the barbarians and the fighters are soaking that, everyone else dies. And the barbies and fighters die on the second round.

High level combat is LETHAL.

 

[Sunderstone]

High-level play sucks. In my opinion, it's for munchkins and twinks who are more concerned with math than a cinematic game.

You are entitled to your opinion about others, as my opinion of you has now shifted into a negative light. You stereotype anyone that likes heroic play into an "accountant". *** late edit - By the way I didnt like "twinks" even in my time in World of Warcraft.

Is that true? Of course not. But it illustrates my point. It doesn't matter what I think. Play the game the way you want.

You could have said just that initially without the jab.

This is a sermon to convince those that don't like high-level play that yours is the one true way.

No it isnt, it's what you interpret this thread to be about based on your idea of what the "true way" should be. I took the thread as a more "Pro" (rather than "Con") take on high level campaigning from fellow players that have encountered the potential problems and have come up with possible ways to sidestep the problems and make it more manageable for those of us that like high level gaming just as well as the lower level.

In my opinion, "Factioning off" high-level play (as seems to be the case in the other thread) will only make matters worse for us all. Also IMO, It seems that more people are out there trying to convince others that High Level games are broken and are even trying to convince designers to stop at lower levels. So in a way the previous thread is more of a crusade to show that their "way" is the right one than this thread is.
This thread is abit more constructive to me.



Now back to the original premise of the thread......
1) Large Stat Blocks - cant be avoided, as we get higher in level we get more tools at our disposal. We could try and make the stat blocks a tad shorter by leaving out some things. Take for instance a Vampire Wizard/Arch Mage, keep the special qualities and attacks listed but DONT describe what they do at the end of the stat block. We have a Monster Manual for that (like Blood Drain or whatever) this saves a few paragraphs. For creature in other sources like MMII, MMIII, FF, these have to be included so stat blocks will be longer.

2) Find The Path, Teleport, etc - we reached high level, we earned these. We still have to eventually walk,fly, etc through the wilderness. If we find out that the ancient artifact known as the "Book of Low Level Glassjaw" is located in the Enworld Forest, we could Teleport to an area we are familiar with closest to it, from there we walk, fly, etc. If we find out that to destroy the insidious "Book of Low Level Glassjaw" we would have to travel to the plane of "Ratbane" and feed it to the legendary "Wulf" then we could use our High level Planeshift to get there, but we still have to search for the creature etc. Some spells will shorten our search but wandering encounters are still possible.

 

[Sunderstone]

If I do try high-level again, it will likely be core rules only, if that.

This is a good point too. Staying closer to core rules will lessen the load. If you use all the stuff from splat books like Book of 9 Swords, etc. be prepared for all the extra rules you need to know and keep track of. This is one of the reasons I dont allow too much "splat". The goo gets all over everything and sometimes the goo isnt very balanced. This can throw the already delicately preserved balance further out of whack.

More is great, but along with "great more" comes "great responsibility".

 

[Kae'Yoss]

High level combat is LETHAL.

So true. I once manage to beat the dwarf berserker into pulp with straight damage. That's the guy with a million hit points. After the fight, he had less than -10.