Preserving the Sweet Spot - A Rebuttal

[Shade]

Hussar, I'm in full agreement.

I'm currently DMing a 24th-level game and playing in a 21st-level game. Both started at 1st level. I find that despite a few kinks (the proliferation of save-or-die effects as stated earlier, the proliferation of immunities that render some abilities, such as sneak attacks and poison nearly useless), the game runs just as smoothly as it did at 1st, 6th, or 12th level.

The resources available are minimal, especially for homebrew DMs. While Dungeon has provided a nice amount of high-level adventures in the past few years, the monster books for awhile provided at least some degree of high-level creatures, and the PHBII offered some decent high-level feats, that's about the limits of the high-level support.

Look at the CR breakdown of the monster books and how the high-level support has dropped off:

Monster Manual II: 34 creatures of CR 15+, 12 of which are CR 20+
Fiend Folio: 30 creatures of CR 15+, 5 of which are CR 20+
Monster Manual III: 27 creatures of CR 15+, 3 of which are CR 20+ (12 of these are simply advanced versions of other creatures in the book, not unique creatures)
Monster Manual IV: 6 creatures of CR 15+, none for CR 20 or higher.

Note: No true dragons with age categories were included, but seeing as the MMIII and IV have no true dragons, that would show even more of a drop-off.

While I'm comfortable advancing monsters, I know many DMs are not. The lack of resources can really deter high-level play.

 

[Psion]

IME, 13th was about where you really could no longer keep pressing forward in 1e or 2e. Players were beating balor demons and great wyrms at that point. I tend to think that people tend to think of the sweet spot being between 1-10 being a result of their history with 1e and 2e.

My 2nd 3e campaign ran to 22nd level. There are some things about high level play that are tasking (interative attacks being my particular bane), but 3e is really more practical to run at higher levels. Being empowered enough to be able to run that campaign to its conclusion was a delight. If anything, I'd say streamline the higher level rules to make playing it more smooth, and extend the sweet spot, not limit it to the one we have always known.

 

[Waylander the Slayer]

I think it is both plausable and evidenced that high level adventures can be fun and challenging. However, higher levels create a different paradigm than levels 1-12. Adventures tend to move from fantasy, to the fantastic. I think this is more the issue for some people than anything else.

Abilities such as teleport, find the path, resurrection, raise dead etc. removes aspects of heroism and heroic action- where the mechanics make actions such as death, heroic sacrifice, investigations etc. mundane. The DM has to create scenarios which take these factors into consideration. As such, planar adventures, places which have numerous anti-scry, anti teleport, anti-dim door, anti commune effects become prevelant. This tends to make situations a bit rediculous and devalues those heroic efforts etc. that the charaters went through at the lower levels. And in many cases (not all), it undermines the verimilitude of the campaign world (e.g the elminister syndrome).

A simple question to pose would be why did the characters even make it through the lower levels if the world is full of such high powered threats? There also is the question of the rapid power change characters go through in such a short time frame as well.

 

[Odhanan]

Abilities such as teleport, find the path, resurrection, raise dead etc. removes aspects of heroism and heroic action- where the mechanics make actions such as death, heroic sacrifice, investigations etc. mundane.

I actually don't agree with this. This would mean that you cannot get Comic book superheroes that actually act and feel like they are heroes. Which is wrong in my opinion, since they are archetypal heroes represented with paranormal abilities, yet can still be very much humans in their dilemmas and dealings with well, life.

Incidentally, I was talking about this with my life partner, and when I told her that there were gamers who didn't like the Book of Nine Swords because it was "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", i.e. supernatural combat abilities, she looked at me and said: "but that's what D&D characters are, aren't they? Why don't they play another game if they aren't happy with D&D?" I think she's right.

 

[Henry]

Abilities such as teleport, find the path, resurrection, raise dead etc. removes aspects of heroism and heroic action- where the mechanics make actions such as death, heroic sacrifice, investigations etc. mundane. The DM has to create scenarios which take these factors into consideration. As such, planar adventures, places which have numerous anti-scry, anti teleport, anti-dim door, anti commune effects become prevelant. This tends to make situations a bit rediculous and devalues those heroic efforts etc. that the charaters went through at the lower levels. And in many cases (not all), it undermines the verimilitude of the campaign world (e.g the elminister syndrome).

I myself don't even worry about that, thanks to advice to Piratecat and some other top-notch DM's I've spoken with in the past; I can always craft situations that require this physics-breaking ability, because if the PCs are the only ones (one one of an elite) who can do these things, only someone with that level of ability can accomplish what's needed.

What stops me is the number-crunching increasingly required for high levels; when I can barely remember to inject story in between the numbers, it's too much for me to deal with.

A simple question to pose would be why did the characters even make it through the lower levels if the world is full of such high powered threats? There also is the question of the rapid power change characters go through in such a short time frame as well.

Since our group takes a more cinematic approach (like movies, where there are golden moments, quotable quotes, etc.) we don't worry about it much. The characters are special as compared to the NPCs, and because of that special quality they learn more quickly, they catch luckier breaks, etc. than any NPCs. In our Eberron game, the PCs are five of the maybe 50 humanoids in the WORLD that are above 12th level.

In game, one player got a kick out of realizing this. He went searching in Sharn for a high level magic item to purchase. NO ONE had it. He asked who would be best to commision it from, and the NPC recommended the party's Artificer. The Artificer had the biggest grin on his face when hearing this.

 

[Barak]

I'll just try to adress a single point, the one of monsters of high enough CR.

While it can be true that there are fewer monsters of high CR, it could also be said that in a way there is many, many more monsters of high CR than lower CR. That's because virtually every single monster can be advanced in one way or another (heck, it could even be every single one, I think). So every low CR monster -can- be a high CR monster.

Of course, the problem with that is that it's a -lot- of prep work. And without being lazy, DMs don't need more prep work.

Would it be a good on-line resource to have, somewhere, already advanced monsters from the diverse monster books at various CR? I'm pretty sure that anyone could post advanced versions of every monster in the SRD without a problem. 3rd party monster books and non-SRD WotC monsters would be another problem, of course..

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Abilities such as teleport, find the path, resurrection, raise dead etc. removes aspects of heroism and heroic action

Okay, I can see resurrection and raising. But teleport? Find the path? So heroics are defined as stumbling about in the wild, getting lost, having a miserable time sleeping in a soaking wet tent while badgers eat your trail rations? Damn, I've been a hero in childhood so often then

In fact, stuff like teleport and find the path take away the tedious parts and let you concentrate on vanquishing evil, finding Very Important Item X, rescuing princesses (and not dragging them back through said wet woods so she looks like a troglodyte when you finally return her to the king)

 

[DJCupboard]

I will also add my approval for this well-stated explanation of what needs to change in the class/level support dynamic.

Further, this is the coolest idea I've ever seen:

4) Save or Die was replaced with Save or Dying (-5 hps).

 

[Animus]

I also agree with Hussar.

I do get burned out on high level play, but other times I itch for it, as a player and DM. It would be nice to see high level support.

While it can be true that there are fewer monsters of high CR, it could also be said that in a way there is many, many more monsters of high CR than lower CR. That's because virtually every single monster can be advanced in one way or another (heck, it could even be every single one, I think). So every low CR monster -can- be a high CR monster.

In general, I like that idea for high level challenges. It makes things more believable IMHO. But I wouldn't mind seeing new high CR monsters that aren't dragons either .

 

[delericho]

Of course, the problem with that is that it's a -lot- of prep work. And without being lazy, DMs don't need more prep work.

And there's the rub. The thing is, the easy monster advancements are not the problem. Adding a few hit dice to a beastie is fairly easy, and increasing the size category isn't that much harder.

The problem comes where you have to do a custom job, either adding class levels to a creature or creating a unique monster in the first place (and, virtually all true dragons are unique monsters in that respect, although the Draconomicon is a big help here).

So, I think your stat block bank is a good idea (although, I'm pretty sure at least one already exists). But what might be even more use is a long discursive document describing the types of opponents (the bruiser, the sneak, and so on), giving recommended classes and PrCs for each, a list of skills to choose, a list of feats to take, and equipment to stock up on. Basically, a short-cut to the whole advancement by class issue.