Prestige templates

[BiggusGeekus]

I'd drop the exp reward for the virtue quests. You're gainging two bonuses for the price of one quest. Also you should lay out some basic guidelines for what such a quest would be (eg. you must face 5 CR [your level +1] encouters).

Just my two cents. Looks pretty solid though!

::wanders over to hong's site::

 

[hong]

I'd drop the exp reward for the virtue quests. You're gainging two bonuses for the price of one quest.

Yeah, good idea.

Also you should lay out some basic guidelines for what such a quest would be (eg. you must face 5 CR [your level +1] encouters).

I haven't really got that far yet. I'm not planning on starting actual play for a few months. I'm just laying down the foundations of the campaign world right now.

Just my two cents. Looks pretty solid though!

::wanders over to hong's site::

Thanks! I appreciate the feedback. Trying to mesh Britannia and D&D 3E is an interesting exercise.

 

[hong]

What you're describing here is, for all intents and purposes, a one level prestige class, which is probably the best way to go about playing it. (After, what's to keep my fighter from deciding that he wants to be a KoF after playing through a few levels and deciding he wants to enlist, another kit-inspired annoyance of mine.)

A 1-level PrC has some important mechanical differences to a template, though. The biggest one is that the PrC actually grants you an extra level, which means more hp, skill points, and possibly higher BAB and saves. It could also mean that some spells which have level limits won't affect you (eg sleep).

Hmmm. The more I see the benefits you can have from spreading your levels around to other things (such as funky races and now maybe cool "template" PRC's), the more I'm convinced that most games should start above first level, just to allow all these funky choices without giving anyone a hassle.

I heartily endorse this product, service and/or brand name.

 

[RogueJK]

I recall seeing class templates before in one of the al-qadim 3e netconversions

You're right. I had forgotten all about this, so I dug my copy up from my hard drive. They have some interesting ideas, but I'm not sure that I like the way that they are handled. Many of them are Al-Qadim-specific, too.

You can download the 3e conversion pdf here. The templates are found in the second chapter. http://www.zakhara.com/conversion.html

Some of them have abilities that aren't explained, though. They just reference you to the Arabian Adventures book. Still, even if you don't have AA, the conversion might still be a good place to look for some ideas.

 

[Humanophile]

...Also, I think Humanophile had a good idea in another thread. Why not make these templates variants of existing classes, but with prerequisites. The PHB and DMG touch on the concept of exchanging class abilities to create variant classes, though they don't go into great detail.

For example, the Pirate Template, an ECL +1 template, would be applied to the Rogue class, but only if the character has 4 ranks in Balance, Use Rope, and Swim. They would remove some of the Rogue's abilites and replace them with pirate-related ones, as well as gradually adding some more powerful ones to offset the ECL penalty. Then, the character, when they reach a sufficient level, might take levels in the Pirate Captain prestige class.

Another example might be the Desert Raider. This template would be added to the Fighter prestige class, who would give up some armor and weapon proficiencies and feats for an expanded skill list, increased skill points, and some special abilities...

My worry is that most of the time, class modification templates should be there for pure flavor and nothing else. In those cases, bonuses to make it ECL + anything kind of hobble anyone who wants to experiment a little. Unless there's something sizeable gained, in which case...

A 1-level PrC has some important mechanical differences to a template, though. The biggest one is that the PrC actually grants you an extra level, which means more hp, skill points, and possibly higher BAB and saves. It could also mean that some spells which have level limits won't affect you (eg sleep).

We were talking about templates that add to your ECL here, at least I was getting that idea, so I see no problem with 1 level "modification" PRC's. For most specialty kit ones, that might even be the best way to go about them. Again, the Knights of Foobia, if they're appricably different from your average footman fighter, should be just a touch better than an equivalently levelled fighter. (Meaning that Ftr X/ KoF 1 should beat a Ftr x more often than not. Equally levelled characters, of course, should have roughly even odds against each other.) If that's the case, I don't see any problem with giving them the +1 BAB and +1d10 hit points, as well as a possible save bonus, in addition to a couple of cool tricks and Knowledge: Nobility and Diplomacy as permanent class skills from now on. One level in most any fighter prestige class would give a lot of the same, powerwise.

Of course, there should also be templates that require you to have a certain sub-optimal feat, or ones that just change up the class a little. (I allow sorcerers, f'rex, to have d6 hit dice in exchange for losing the familiar, which requires a feat to get back. I see that as a fairly even tradeoff.)

 

[hong]

My worry is that most of the time, class modification templates should be there for pure flavor and nothing else. In those cases, bonuses to make it ECL + anything kind of hobble anyone who wants to experiment a little.

However, if it's purely about flavour, you don't need game mechanics for that. This thread is sorta predicated on the assumption that there are some sort of game-mechanical advantages to be had from taking a template/PrC/etc. If there weren't, then the discussion becomes moot.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Copied over from the EzBoard Forum:


Re: Avatar template
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I like it. I will probably use this in a game I'm DMing right now. I do have a couple of concerns however:

1) The quests, I'm assuming, are meant for the entire party to complete. Otherwise, if one person in the party is an Avatar, and the others aren't, then that character would receive an inordinate amount of the spotlight.

2) What happens when new characters enter the group, who haven't completed the Avatar quests of the group? Also, what happens if a character dies and can't be ressurected? Does the new character gain the Avatar background?

3) If the Avatar template does not give an ECL, then the CR system will not accurately work for Avatar beings. (The characters could take on higher CR encounters for being Avatars.)

4) What if someone in the group doesn't want to be an Avatar? What if they are playing a Nuetral character who doesn't give a rat's cheese about Compassion or Honesty? Should they be given the shaft?

5) I agree that the Avatar template should not be a PrC. I see it as being like the Aasimar or Half-Celestial templates.

6) I already use a version of templates in my game. If someone wants to make an Archer (template) Fighter (class), that is okay in my game. The Avatar seems like it goes right along those lines.

 

[hong]

Re: Avatar template

(Copied over from EZboard)

ConcreteBuddha:

I like it. I will probably use this in a game I'm DMing right now. I do have a couple of concerns however:

1) The quests, I'm assuming, are meant for the entire party to complete. Otherwise, if one person in the party is an Avatar, and the others aren't, then that character would receive an inordinate amount of the spotlight.

Well, that's an inherent danger in going from a single-player game to a multi-player one. Honestly, I haven't given a lot of thought to how these "quests" would be handled. In U4, though, the virtue-related stuff wasn't handled via "quests" as such. Instead, the game just tracked what you said to people in town, whether you ran away from fights, etc, and modified your virtue accordingly. I was thinking it could be done the same way in a regular p&p game; how formalised the system would be is yet to be determined.

If you wanted to finish U4, you _had_ to become an Avatar (this wasn't so hard if you knew the cheats). In a p&p game, it would be optional, so unless the DM and players decided they wanted to recreate the CRPG, it wouldn't matter so much.

2) What happens when new characters enter the group, who haven't completed the Avatar quests of the group? Also, what happens if a character dies and can't be ressurected? Does the new character gain the Avatar background?

If the Avatar dies, that's tough. Same as with any character.

3) If the Avatar template does not give an ECL, then the CR system will not accurately work for Avatar beings. (The characters could take on higher CR encounters for being Avatars.)

Fair point. You could see this as being a reward for being a Good Guy, though -- just like if you do a quest and get a magic sword as a reward, only instead of a sword, you get spiffy abilities instead.

4) What if someone in the group doesn't want to be an Avatar? What if they are playing a Nuetral character who doesn't give a rat's cheese about Compassion or Honesty? Should they be given the shaft?

Sure.

Note that I'm not saying that everyone must become an Avatar. This template is just something to reflect what's possible in the Britannia campaign setting, not an objective that every player character must have. You could run an entire campaign where nobody takes notice of the virtues, and it would work fine. You could also have a campaign where everyone is on the road to enlightenment, and it too would work fine.

Problems would arise if you have half the group wanting to kill monsters and take treasure, and the other half wanting to play the shining, morally upstanding hero. But this sort of thing can happen in any group, no matter what the setting is.