prices getting a little nuts?

[Mouseferatu]

That's a wee bit of hyperbole, or at least denying the middle condition, don't you think?

You will simple have to choose not to buy the more expensive supplements, or at least the ones you see as the most egregious. That's hardly tantamount to leaving the hobby.

Fair enough, at face value. My point wasn't that "You won't be able to buy books for less than $50." What I meant--and I could, I realize, have been a little more clear--is that prices are overdue for a hike across the board. When the day comes that $50 is the standard price for hardcover, I anticipate the smaller books going upward in price as well. I think it's reasonable to assume that some people--not all, but some--who are unwilling to pay $50 for a sizable hardcover will also not pay $25 for a smaller softback. It was to those people that my comment about leaving the hobby, or making do with what they've already purchased, was aimed.

My apologies for the lack of clarity. Hyperbole is nobody's friend.

 

[Staffan]

I suppose it's not worth suggesting that we should examine West End Games' financial health or their rank in the industry since those days.

Though from what I understand, WEG's implosion had more with the owner's shoe sales business going poorly (so he moved money from WEG to the shoes) at the same time as they had to renew their license with Lucasfilm, and since Lucasfilm wanted more money now that there were new Star Wars movies coming they had to bow out of that. I don't think it's fair to blame the fall of WEG on the $12 price of the Ghostbusters box set.

 

[Vocenoctum]

For myself, I try to judge value by content vs money. But really if I have to spend more than $20 on a book, I'll have to really read through it, and it really has to draw my attention into it.
Not with pretty pictures, with content that I'll actually use.

Everyone seems to take it for granted, the price of books, but didn't teh Industry decide to make such prices the norm because they figured people would pay it? Not because of some grand economic model.

But, regardless, I'm passing by more and more books lately. They just don't have the attraction for me. There's no "getting out of the hobby" for me, but publishers really do have to justify their product to me for my money.

But, all that aside, I've nearly abandoned the PDF market. I've gotten tired of the prices approaching print books for the same product, and I'd say 90% of the products do not adequately describe what's in them, so that's that.

I'm really wanting Dragonlance & Age of Mortals, but can't justify the money. (and trust me, I can justify exorbitant amounts of money. A simple day at the range costs more than $50

 

[Vigilance]

Everyone seems to take it for granted, the price of books, but didn't teh Industry decide to make such prices the norm because they figured people would pay it? Not because of some grand economic model.

Actually, prices are going up because publishers profit margins are bad.

What concerns me about the original poster's point is he seems to be saying "books were cheaper 10 years ago- now they're more expensive, that's awful".

That's all well and good. Cars used to be 5,000 dollars for brand new ones too. Now if you see a car for 20K and dont want to pay that, it's your perogative, but it isnt fair to say to the manufacturer "why can't you still sell them for 5K".

Prices go up, and as some others have pointed out, if you look at inflation, game books have NOT kept up with it.

Also comparing other companies to WOTC and what they did with the PHB is grossly unfair.

WOTC priced the PHB where they did expecting to print tens of thousands over a long period of time.

If another publisher could confidently predict they were going to sell 100K books over many years they could charge 20 bucks for their hardcovers as well.

However, the reality is, 99% of all books sell less than 5K over a very short period of time.

It's a totally different business model, and not a fair comparison to make.

Chuck

 

[trancejeremy]

Though from what I understand, WEG's implosion had more with the owner's shoe sales business going poorly (so he moved money from WEG to the shoes) at the same time as they had to renew their license with Lucasfilm, and since Lucasfilm wanted more money now that there were new Star Wars movies coming they had to bow out of that. I don't think it's fair to blame the fall of WEG on the $12 price of the Ghostbusters box set.

Well, actually, while that is true (more or less), the reverse was also apparently true in the early days (the 80s). He took money from the shoe store to keep WEG afloat.

Apparently the only thing that really made money for them was the Star Wars RPG (well, Paranoia, too. But later versions weren't very good and I think flopped.)

 

[d20books]

I've resisted... I can't any more

Go to the Inflation Calculator and check out what your money is really buying.

What cost $20 in 1985 would cost $34.31 in 2003. Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2003 and 1985, they would cost you $20 and $11.66 respectively.

Looking at this, we're actually paying roughly the same for books now as we did back then.

If all things were equal, you've got nothing to complain about, but looking at my shelf, the very thin ADD1 books are puny compared to the much beefier D20 books from FFG, WotC, ATG, etc. Looks to me like you have LESS to complain about.

Maybe the issue is that there is too much for you to sort through and buy? Impulse buying is a good way to make you think the material is not worth the money after you get a few bad D20/OGL prodcuts at really cheap prices.

There are lots of really fantastic books but you would not know about them because they are in the $25-$45 range. I don't think I own many books under $20 because they tend to be crap (IMHO).

The ENworld reviews are the best anywhere. Start there. Spending $40 in a fantastic book full of ideas and great mechanics beats three or four thin pamphlets any day.

Green Ronin's "The Book of the Righteous" is $40. SUPER FANTASTIC.
Atlas Games' "Fantasy Bestiary", $45. Again, great book.
MonkeyGod Enterprises' "From Stone to Steel", $40. Excellent 5-stars

BTW, I am married, have kids, and game too. You simply get what you pay for.

 

[Mystic Eye]

Everyone seems to take it for granted, the price of books, but didn't teh Industry decide to make such prices the norm because they figured people would pay it? Not because of some grand economic model.

I don't think so. I think it is more the economics of it all that is driving this and publishers are HOPING people will buy them at this rate. Statistically, people are, which is not a bad thing for the gaming community. It means more publishers may stay around then leave. Believe it or not, there is a ton of work that goes into every book (probably even bad ones) and the payoff never equals the workload in this industry. A publisher wants to make money at this so they can continue to do what they love as a business. Most are not wealthy from this biz and most never will be.
The econimics that drive this are actually simple.
Cost of goods versus revenue needs to equal profitability. Publishers are competing for shelf space and retailers would rather give their shelf space to a $50 book than a $15 dollar book. This is driving the books to be ever higher in quality (hard back, full color, etc) which is driving up the prices. Also driving the prices are deminishing sales.
Three years ago, selling 5k of a d20 book was not that hard. The big guys (exluding WOTC which sold a good load more) could sell 20k units or more. Now, that is all but gone (with one or two exceptions that do outstanding of course). The smallest tier of publishers are lucky to break 800 units in sales on a new book release which means they print less. The mid tier selling at best a few thousand units (but not reaching 5k often if at all). This all means smaller print runs that cost more per unit that drive up the costs of goods appreciably. Then you add the higher production quality and wham, a $40-$50 dollar book!

One way to drive prices down is to actually stimulate the consumer base to buy more or grow overall. If I knew how to do that in the d20 market right now I would bottle it, sell it to my fellow publishers, and be quite well off.

So ultimately, it is the consumer driving the higher prices from the publishers because they are not buying as much but demanding higher quality. I do it too, I am faaaar more selective than I was three years ago. When d20 launched I vowed to have it all. Heheh. I would be in debtors prison if I tried to keep that vow.

Of course, while I am basing this on facts I have gathered it is just my opinion. I may be off base here but I doubt it.

 

[alsih2o]

i love you guys, and i say this with love...


GAMERS ARE CHEAPSKATES.

i laid down $20 for breakfast for me and the wife sunday morning, and i will never play it again. then $16 to get in the zoo, where i paid $2 for a diet coke.

i spent $45 on a pottery book that i cannot really share with my friends.

think about the other things in life and the enjoyment you get for the money. how much does renting a dvd cost in your town? what percentage of a book is that? and you only get the movie for a day or 2.

i am consistently amazed at the complaints over book prices and prices of gaming items in general. when i was selling die rollers for $15 or $20 (i cannot remember) i got more chastising emails from people saying i was trying to "rip off the gaming community" than i did from buyers!

frugal is one thing, cheap is another.

 

[Desdichado]

Not having read all the responses, it looks like most people are missing the original point; it's not that monkius can't afford to buy the books, it's that prices are now to the point where he's not impulse buying them the way he used to. That translates into less volume of material moved. Is the increase in price enough to offset that to turn the same profit? Probably not, because folks around here are saying that the price is a reflection of the cost of printing and distributing the book. It's entirely possible that the market is slowly dying if it's not priced to move impulse buyers anymore.

I totally agree with monkius on this issue; I'm not really price constrained anymore. If I really want a $50 book, I could go to the store right now and buy it and it would only make a slight ripple in our monthly budget (as long as I didn't do that several times a month, mind you ) but I'm extremely unlikely to pick up a $50 book unless I absolutely was certain that I wanted it. On the other hand, a $15-$20 book I might buy if it just caught my eye and I had a vague inkling that it might contain something I'd enjoy.

 

[Desdichado]

Of course now that I have read the thread, I've got Doug Herirng disagreeing with me and bringing his publishing experience into play. Curse you, Doug Herring, as a spoilsport of the worst kind!