prices getting a little nuts?

[ES2]

Wow, there's a lot of complaining about prices these days...seems that the roleplaying hobbyists are a really picky bunch of people. If you like it, buy it, and if you don't like it, don't buy it. It's that simple. Why complicate things???

If you are well off financially, then don't worry about it. Buy the dang book and enjoy it for what it is. So what about the price. So, you would rather buy two books at 25.00 each than one at 50.00...despite the fact that those two books might be less than half the total pages of the single 50.00, so which is the better way to spend the money???

Or you buy a total of $70 or $80 in LOTR over the course of 3 months, but if you had that money up front you won't get it...and then, if your gonna play the game, its a better investment to just buy a whole booster box instead of buying 3 here, 5 there...you'll spend less by buying a single box then spending gradually over the course of 3 months for the equivalent amount of cards...so which is the wiser choice???

I'm the opposite...if I'm going to get into a card game, I go all out...I buy a starter and a booster, and if I like it, I buy a booster box. Now I have enough cards for probably 3 people, maybe 4 (and of course I buy an equal number of starter sets just in case), and I'm good to go for a few months. Or, I'll buy the 50.00 book over the two 25.00 books because I know that I'll get more of a complete game AND way more pages total than the two smaller books combined, so the more expensive purchase is the wiser choice.

Some people worry way to much. Worry leads to stress, stress leads to anxiety attacks, and anxiety attacks leads to eventual death (if unchecked and reckless, that is.) If your a gamer, and I mean a real gamer, then price is irrelevant. If your a gamer, then buy the game, read it, and play it once. You may not play it in a month, or even a year, but eventually you may get the chance.

 

[Vigilance]

I guess my naive question would be why would it cost almost double today? I don't have a copy of the original ghostbusters, but here are some questions:
I think the problem is that a lot of books are putting everything and the kitchen sink in. A single book that acts as both the players handbook and the dm's guide is nice. It also can get expensive. Taking the example of the $40 LOTR RPG game above, if the players could have bought a $20 players handbook, I bet they would have. Instead of the company selling 1 $40 book, they could have sold 2x$20 books to the DM and ?x$20 books to the players...

You are mistaking other games for D&D. Bad theory. D&D is a MUCH different animal than A) any 3rd party game, or B) any licensed game.

Licensed games do the majority of their business in the first book. This is why WOTC made one Call of Cthulhu book and one Wheel of Time book. This is also why SG-1 and Babylon 5 made their first books so inclusive.

Also- they probably not only paid 100k for the license up front, but they likely also pay a % of the book's profits.

Cars are a different business model unfortunately.

You're comparing new car dealerships trading out options to 3rd party game companies. We're like the local mom and pop car lots in a dirt lot on the corner. We have a selection of cars that are bought or not as is.

Mongoose and AEG are big companies *by the standards* of 3rd party game companies. But to compare them to WOTC (as in the PHB/DMG analogy) is comparing apples to oranges.

Even SJ Games is a bad comparison. They are much bigger than most 3rd party companies, GURPS is a product line VERY well established over a long period of time.

Just a perspective from a freelancer in the industry.

The cost of those books are high. But if you look at the books pushing the 50 dollar envelope, they tend to be licensed products. This isnt a coincidence.

Chuck

 

[Cergorach]

Let me put it in another way. Producing B&W TVs might be a lot cheaper then producing color TVs, but how many people would be willing to buy a B&W TV these days? The same goes for producing RPG books, these aren't cars where you can build in extra's after the fact. Books are printed, no variation possible, and 90% of the customers want prety books...

Besides inflation you also have to keep in mind that the expected quality level is higher then 20 years ago...

 

[monkius]

Books are printed, no variation possible, and 90% of the customers want pretty books...

I have two things I want to respond to that:

#1: Books can be packaged differently:

GURPS Traveller $22.95
GURPS Traveller - Limited Edition Hardcover $49.95

Steve Jackson Games has done this for several of their books. The stores tend to carry the paperback version, and people who really want the hardcover probably order it direct.

#2: While I as a customer want 'pretty' books, I really am looking for good rules and/or setting. If/when I am actually playing a game, we usually are looking at each other, not the rulebook, so how 'pretty' it is has only so much value. I refuse as a customer to spend $50 on one. Companies need to realize that $50 is an unacceptable price point for some people.

 

[gariig]

#2: While I as a customer want 'pretty' books, I really am looking for good rules and/or setting. If/when I am actually playing a game, we usually are looking at each other, not the rulebook, so how 'pretty' it is has only so much value. I refuse as a customer to spend $50 on one. Companies need to realize that $50 is an unacceptable price point for some people.

Not necessarily. The book is BEAUTIFUL(assuming the SG-1 RPG) and as people have said you usually spend more and get less when books are split apart. Take Arcana Unearthed for instance. I bought the core rule book at $30(hardcover, B&W, good number of pages, and quality paper) but I don't know anything about the default setting Diamond Throne. So now I am going to buy some dinky little 96 page Gazetter for $18..I'm just spent $50. I would have rather bought a $50 hard cover with color and the Diamond Throne information included.

Each to their own, I like band for your buck personally. If I want it, I will get it. I guess fortunately none of the expensive books have been on my "must have" list.

Gariig

 

[Mouseferatu]

Companies need to realize that $50 is an unacceptable price point for some people.

And that's certainly a fair position, if it's the one you want to take. But it probably means you'll eventually have to leave the hobby--or at least stop getting new stuff and rely on your existing library--due to inability to get any of the major supplements or rulebooks.

The truth us, the RPG industry is remarkably cheap when it comes to hardcover books the size of, say, the core rules or most major hardcover supplements. It has not kept up with inflation, or with the rest of the book market. I wouldn't be surprised if $40-$50 became the standard cost for RPG hardcovers within the next 10 years (if not sooner). In fact, I'd be shocked if it didn't.

 

[Mystic Eye]

And that's certainly a fair position, if it's the one you want to take. But it probably means you'll eventually have to leave the hobby--or at least stop getting new stuff and rely on your existing library--due to inability to get any of the major supplements or rulebooks.

The truth us, the RPG industry is remarkably cheap when it comes to hardcover books the size of, say, the core rules or most major hardcover supplements. It has not kept up with inflation, or with the rest of the book market. I wouldn't be surprised if $40-$50 became the standard cost for RPG hardcovers within the next 10 years (if not sooner). In fact, I'd be shocked if it didn't.

Actually, you are 100% correct. This will be the direction. I could go into a huge economic breakdown as to why but I will give a short answer to this.
There might be a small few who refuse to pay $40-$50 for a book but statistically, harback, larger books sell 20%-30% higher in unit volume than the $20 soft cover books do. If you look at that, the consumer majority has spoken and have indicated, that as a whole, they prefer to, and are willing to pay for, the books in the $30-$50 range.

Even if that were not the case, even if the sales were leveled out, it would still make sense to produce larger, more artistic, hard back books for the additional revenue gains. In this front list motivated market you need to sell as many, for as much as you can in about 120 days, afterwhich it drops off to trickle sales.
This is equally driven by the cost of goods that go into each product. Production values have gone through the roof and there are costs associated with that. To stay up with competition, these production values will remain this high and perhaps shift upward even further.

So, while any of us hate to alienate a consumer who does not wish to spend the $30-$50 for the big books that consumer is in a serious minority.

 

[Cergorach]

I have two things I want to respond to that:

#1: Books can be packaged differently:

GURPS Traveller $22.95
GURPS Traveller - Limited Edition Hardcover $49.95

Steve Jackson Games has done this for several of their books. The stores tend to carry the paperback version, and people who really want the hardcover probably order it direct.

#2: While I as a customer want 'pretty' books, I really am looking for good rules and/or setting. If/when I am actually playing a game, we usually are looking at each other, not the rulebook, so how 'pretty' it is has only so much value. I refuse as a customer to spend $50 on one. Companies need to realize that $50 is an unacceptable price point for some people.

#1 Although doable, it's not cost efficient for a publisher, especially with full color products. If there wasn't a limited edition HC and normal version, the HC version would cost only $40, instead of $50. Most D20/OGL publisher figure (rightly so) that they would come out ahead if they printed only one version of their rulebook. When 70% of your potential customers demand HC full color rulebooks, and you'll sell those to 90% of your potential customers, then you'll see that you'll probably do what's most cost efficient.

#2 There are already a LOT of rules and variants out there in D20/OGL land. I think that most of the customer base are looking less at only rules content and more at 'fluff' and 'eye-candy' content, some rules are still important, but less than when the D20/OGL rush began...

Even if 'some' people find $50 to much, publishers have to consider to:
- print more, lower price to $45, and hopefully sell more (very risky for publishers)
- make those 'some' want to buy a $50 product (see the pretty pictures, see the kewl rules, see the kewl story line).
- accept that there will always be people that will find the price to heigh, the color wastefull, to much this, to little that, etc. And learn the lesson, YOU CAN'T PLEASE EVERYONE!

 

[Nikchick]

I doubt that Ghostbusters would be produced the same way now as it was then - now, it would be made as a big, thick, pretty hardback instead of a light boxed set.

I suppose it's not worth suggesting that we should examine West End Games' financial health or their rank in the industry since those days.

Instead, I will just pop in to mention that the costs to today's publisher for the "nice light boxed set" is nearly as much as a coor hardback, if not more. Additionally, the game distribution system is no longer set up to distribute "light" boxed sets, and the losses that the publishers suffer (due to damage to the product in shipping/storing, boxes that can't be stacked or packaged like books and suffer more crushing damage in shipping and when being stored, they need to be packed fewer to a packing box which raises the overall price for shipping components compared to a book, etc) makes producing a boxed set pure folly for any company wishing to remain profitable and in business today.

It's just the reality of responsible publishing today. There were many game products released in the past that were not financially viable products for their producers, and no matter how fondly the old-time gamer may look back upon those products, it's not realistic to point to those projects as if they were standard or sustainable as model products!

Nicole

 

[Psion]

And that's certainly a fair position, if it's the one you want to take. But it probably means you'll eventually have to leave the hobby--or at least stop getting new stuff and rely on your existing library--due to inability to get any of the major supplements or rulebooks.[/b]

That's a wee bit of hyperbole, or at least denying the middle condition, don't you think?

You will simple have to choose not to buy the more expensive supplements, or at least the ones you see as the most egregious. That's hardly tantamount to leaving the hobby.

That's something I never really considered until recently. I mean I gleefully buy large books with a good price per page ratio, like Book of the Righteous. Though it's costly, you get a lot for what you pay.

Recently I did run into a book that I wanted that I had to walk away from because I considered the price ridiculous. Name, d20 BESM. The book is relatively slender, about the size of Mutants & Masterminds. However:
- The B&W version is as costly as the full color M&M.
- The color version is about 20 dollars more.

I consider than unnacceptable.

There are some publishers out there who are putting out books for more than what I perceive their worth is. I base that on a relative evaluation, however. But, I think you have to. I think if you price out a book like BotR or Stargate SG-1, you should really do a comparison to price per page counts of books in similar categories, as those books aren't the really "overpriced" ones. It's the ones that sell 48 page books for the price everyone else is selling 96 page books for, or 96 page books for the price everyone is selling 128 page books for. Or, as the above example, 128 page black and white books for the price others are selling full color books for.