Problem with high level wizards....

[frankthedm]

Wizards got the nerf stick very, very bad. Its understandable in intent, but the execution went way beyond expectations.

Maybe your expectations, I had a hunch this coming as soon as Mearls’s involvement with 4th edition was announced. His Iron Heroes game basically let the NPC casters do whatever the DM wanted and made PC wizards optional and straightjacketed at the same time. I don’t think that was a terrible thing, but it certainly put the writing on the wall.

Originally Posted by Sitara
Furthermore, this now invalidates actions of key npc's. I mean, how exactly did elminster survive alone in hell given that his powers are so mcuh weak; how did raistlin take on half the dragon queens army, etc.

They were infused with more power than player charaters and most other casters have. They were solo 'monsters' in their own rights, which is fine and dandy for the stars of a movie or a book.

 

[DreamChaser]

Oh...and lets not forget that a 23rd level 3e wizard is beyond the scope of the standard rules for that game and outside the scope of 4e altogether.

The point of 4e was not to wrap epic levels into the norm but to stretch the standard 20 longer.

So your 23rd level wizard is level 34 in 4e.

DC

 

[theNater]

Don't get me wrong, i've been loving 4e so far. But I did have this 23rd lvl wizzie in 3.5 that i'm trying to convert over. Wizards basically have 4 encounter powers, 4 dailys, and then their at wills. Seems like any fight that goes more than 4 rounds and you're eating into your precious dailys or reduced to using your at-wills which aren't that great. And honestly, I'm not that impressed with some of the encounter powers. Doing 5d6+int is high for a lot of them, many are even less, and you only get one of them then you have to use a completely different encounter power. The monsters seem to have A LOT of HP. I mean my lvl 23 wizards will run out of spells against a lvl 4 black dragon for crying out loud. These spells will take a long time to drop even lvl 10 mobs, much less lvl 23 ones that I will likely be fighting. What am I missing here?

Remember that you're not doing all the group's damage.

Let's assume that a fight lasts for about 8 rounds. If you open with an at-will for positioning purposes(magic missile while closing the distance, ray of frost to keep the big dude from pounding you in the first round, etc.), fire off your encounter powers at the first slightly good opening, and use a daily when the enemies are perfectly set up for it, then you have only two rounds of using at-will powers when you would rather be using something else. Even if you'd prefer to open with an encounter or the daily, you're spending less than half the combat using at-will powers.

You can keep this power usage up for 4 combats without needing an extended rest.

 

[chaotix42]

I'm quite happy with the way the Wizard ended up. He has several options across his various Utility spells, Paragon paths, and the Archmage destiny to recover spent spells, and also an Epic feat that allows them to recover a spell with an action point. I've yet to really inspect the magic equipment but I suspect there's even more stuff in there that allows recovery of expended powers.

As for the damage part, yes, now wizards are no longer the best at everything. : ) What they lack in damage they make up in flexibility. Their spellbook allows them to collect all of their Utility spells and Daily spells and never lose them, while the other classes can only know so many, and must exchange them for better ones over time. The wizard's powers also scale rather well IMO, so a lot of their options don't become obsolete.

The bonuses from implements are rather nice too. I'm most impressed with orbs and their vicious de-buffing effects, although staffs have a lot pf potential - very balanced between offense and defense. Wands are just OK, since they grant a Daily use of several low level wizard and warlock powers. Problem is they don't offer anything exciting on a crit.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

If you want a damage dealing arcane caster, why not go warlock or MC wizard(warlock) or warlock(wizard)? This is not the same game as 3.x, so using the exact same class to portray your character seems silly. If doing gobs of damage is that important to your character, then a little MC into warlock seems to fulfill that. Ignore the fluff if you don't like it. It doesn't matter to the character's capabilities.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Remember that you're not doing all the group's damage.

Let's assume that a fight lasts for about 8 rounds. If you open with an at-will for positioning purposes(magic missile while closing the distance, ray of frost to keep the big dude from pounding you in the first round, etc.), fire off your encounter powers at the first slightly good opening, and use a daily when the enemies are perfectly set up for it, then you have only two rounds of using at-will powers when you would rather be using something else. Even if you'd prefer to open with an encounter or the daily, you're spending less than half the combat using at-will powers.

You can keep this power usage up for 4 combats without needing an extended rest.

Well this brings u a good point, our last adventure from Shadowfell Keep we had a fight last 11 rounds. Sure it was the big fight though. Anyways, the monster HP continue to go up but not really PC damage. I know they've done a ton of playtesting, but it just doesn't look like damage scales along with monster toughness.

 

[Otterscrubber]

If you want a damage dealing arcane caster, why not go warlock or MC wizard(warlock) or warlock(wizard)? This is not the same game as 3.x, so using the exact same class to portray your character seems silly. If doing gobs of damage is that important to your character, then a little MC into warlock seems to fulfill that. Ignore the fluff if you don't like it. It doesn't matter to the character's capabilities.

You know I was just thinking that. I need to look into the MC options and see which is more in line with what I had in mind but that does sound like a good way to go.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

Probably if you want to preserve the feel of your character as best as possible, MCing wizard(warlock) will do it best. Cantrips, spellbooks, lessened inpact from pacts, etc...

The thing is that all these classes do is give a suite of ablilities. Start with the one that is closest, and tweak till correct, or at least acceptable.

You can even get some illusion type abilities with the fey pact. Just need a little creativity, and the willingness to ignore fluff.

 

[Kzach]

Heh, I just realised as I was looking through a 16th-level fighter I made up, that if he was to use every single one of his powers in one combat, one per round, not including renewed encounter powers from his crits (a paragon path feature), and including item powers, then he would be doing something different every round for 19 rounds.

And that's only using his at-wills once each.

At 23rd-level, there are a bunch of powers that renew other powers, so not even including them, you'll probably have about 25+ worth of choices for any particular encounter.

If that's not enough, then wait til 5e. I'm sure they'll up the ante

 

[theNater]

Well this brings u a good point, our last adventure from Shadowfell Keep we had a fight last 11 rounds. Sure it was the big fight though. Anyways, the monster HP continue to go up but not really PC damage. I know they've done a ton of playtesting, but it just doesn't look like damage scales along with monster toughness.

So...a big fight is 11 rounds. And this is with level 1 characters, I assume.

The low-level characters don't have a full collection of encounter powers yet. By the time you get your third encounter power, have the monster's hit points tripled? Thanks to the aquisition of new powers, the PC's damage per combat goes up much, much faster than their damage per round does, even for fairly short(4-5 round) combats.