Problem with high level wizards....

[The Little Raven]

Not that there's anything bad about rogues actually kicking butt for a change, but personally, I think it sucks, and in large part reflects a preference for fighter-type characters on the part of the designers.

I think it reflects a preference for all character types to have a roughly equal number of options and utility available to them, rather than every previous edition's overloading of spellcasters (and the wizard in particular) and underloading of everyone else.

 

[theNater]

The lvl 1 eladrin ranger I'm making can either Grab, Bull Rush, Hit & Run, or Twin Strike once she's used her daily and encounter powers. That's roughly a 40% reduction from what a lvl 1 ranger in 3e could do. (3e: Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Sunder, Trip, Standard Attack & Move, Full Attack).

I've bolded a part of this statement for emphasis. Remind me, how many daily and encounter powers did a level 1 ranger from 3rd edition have?

Also: I'd like to see the build you've got for a 1st level 3rd edition ranger that could Bull Rush and Disarm and Grapple and Sunder and Trip with a reasonable(more than 50%) chance of success. Or, if you're going to include all options regardless of potency, remember that your 4th edition ranger can perform a basic melee attack and a basic ranged attack.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

I've bolded a part of this statement for emphasis. Remind me, how many daily and encounter powers did a level 1 ranger from 3rd edition have?

They don't precisely translate from edition to edition... but daily and encounter powers are less than useable like the combat options were.

Also: I'd like to see the build you've got for a 1st level 3rd edition ranger that could Bull Rush and Disarm and Grapple and Sunder and Trip with a reasonable(more than 50%) chance of success.

Human ranger 2 / fighter 1. Exotic Wpn: Whip Dagger (1st), Imp Trip (1st), Imp Disarm (2nd), Imp Bullrush (3rd). Close enough.

Or, if you're going to include all options regardless of potency, remember that your 4th edition ranger can perform a basic melee attack and a basic ranged attack.

If you're using basic attacks... you chose your at-wills poorly or you're in deep and don't have any proper equipment.

 

[neceros]

Human ranger 2 / fighter 1. Exotic Wpn: Whip Dagger (1st), Imp Trip (1st), Imp Disarm (2nd), Imp Bullrush (3rd). Close enough..

First level, not third.

Regardless, it doesn't really matter. Play 3.5 if you like 3.5, or switch when you feel it's appropriate.

 

[Thasmodious]

Beef them up? Whatever. Once you use up your encounters and dailies, especially at low levels... you're stuck with using the same at-will over and over. There's no trip, no disarm, no sunder... they've removed 75% of the options I used in 3e with my fighter all the time. The only thing they left was bull rush.

Seriously. The lvl 1 eladrin ranger I'm making can either Grab, Bull Rush, Hit & Run, or Twin Strike once she's used her daily and encounter powers. That's roughly a 40% reduction from what a lvl 1 ranger in 3e could do. (3e: Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Sunder, Trip, Standard Attack & Move, Full Attack).

Except now... every class is that way. Casters got the shaft.

Try playing the actual game. I've played through and ran a few dozen encounters now and not once have I seen an "at will power grind" to end some 30 round super fight. It's a myth (mostly yours). The at wills aren't some basement weaksauce. They are actually quite useful abilities that get used tactically throughout a fight, not reluctantly only when there is nothing left. They are part of the package of tactical options available to that character. There are plenty of situations where tide of iron or eyebite or scorching blast or any of them are the better choice than an encounter or daily power.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

First level, not third.

Meh, so a normal whip or tripping weapon and Imp Trip / Imp Bull Rush or Imp Sunder or whatever.

 

[the Jester]

Meh, so a normal whip or tripping weapon and Imp Trip / Imp Bull Rush or Imp Sunder or whatever.

Right- so a 1st level 3e ranger can perform, maybe, one trick maneuver with any real hope of success.

 

[theNater]

They don't precisely translate from edition to edition... but daily and encounter powers are less than useable like the combat options were.

Daily and encounter powers are perfectly usable. You can use the encounter power once per encounter, and the daily power once per day. And they don't have huge lists of possible penalties and bonuses that you have to check every time you use them. And the dailies usually do something when you miss, so you haven't completely wasted a turn if you fail.

The combat options could be used repeatedly, but didn't have a very good chance to succeed(unless you had appropriate feats), and didn't give you partial successes when you failed.

Meh, so a normal whip or tripping weapon and Imp Trip / Imp Bull Rush or Imp Sunder or whatever.

So as a human ranger(at level 1) you've got meaningful access to two of the five abilities you listed? Remember that even normal whips are exotic weapons.

If you're using basic attacks... you chose your at-wills poorly or you're in deep and don't have any proper equipment.

I put it to you that if you're in a situation where using the combat options you don't have feats for is the optimal strategy, you are in deep , possibly due to poor feat choice or not having proper equipment.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

Try playing the actual game. I've played through and ran a few dozen encounters now and not once have I seen an "at will power grind" to end some 30 round super fight. It's a myth (mostly yours). The at wills aren't some basement weaksauce. They are actually quite useful abilities that get used tactically throughout a fight, not reluctantly only when there is nothing left. They are part of the package of tactical options available to that character. There are plenty of situations where tide of iron or eyebite or scorching blast or any of them are the better choice than an encounter or daily power.

I have played the game and after using my daily and encounter, I was using Reaping Strike or Cleave each and every round. That's no different than using Full Attack each and every round.

 

[RickVigorous]

Human ranger 2 / fighter 1. Exotic Wpn: Whip Dagger (1st), Imp Trip (1st), Imp Disarm (2nd), Imp Bullrush (3rd). Close enough.

Quick note: you're missing two prereq feats here, since trip and disarm need combat expertise and bull rush needs power attack. If you want to use a whip (and have at least 2 levels of ranger) you'll need at least 6 feats, which will be possible at ~6th level. As a human ranger 1, you could take EWP:whip and Combat Expertise or Expertise and Trip/Disarm, but that's about it.