Problems with firearms?

[swrushing]

It's the same as introducing one or two encounters far below the EL of a high level party in D&D (these first to reward the players for getting to high levels), and then skipping over/fast forwarding through similar encounters, to save time.

And so, it seems we all agree that at high level some tasks, not all, which were iffy, had a chance of failure, at lower levels would be so easy as to be effectively automatic.

IE... tasks less random in outcome than at lower levels. (Which is where the dc issues came into this discussion.)

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Hmm... an interesting idea. I would say this would only work 'untrained' if the weapon had a burst setting. I'll think on this some more later.

Yea. That's what I meant. If the gun has a burstfire setting, then you can use it to get a +2 on the attack, though you burn 3 rounds for it. As it stands, an "untrained" person does nothing more than waste ammo, even with the burst limiter in place.

Well, emulating your favorite movies aside, I still stand by my assertion that 'area autofire' is not as dangerous to a *single person* than some people/hollywood would have you believe. Certainly it is dangerous, and likely you will be injured and/or killed, but actually putting those 10 autofire bullets on one guy all at once is, well, extremely improbable.

As do I, as do I. I'm saying 0-2 more DICE of damage, representing an additional graze or single additional hit as you TRY to "hose" the one guy in the area of effect. If more than one person is there, trying to spread the bullets out to hit everyone uses autofire as normal. This would make autofire on one person a little more lethal, though there's still a 30% chance that you don't get any extra hits in, regardless. Maybe raise the percentage for getting NO extra damage. Hrm. This one is still REALLY up in the air. Just a thought I had. A bone to throw to the people who want to "open up" on somebody ... it isn't really going to do much extra damage, but at least they'll FEEL badass.

Heh. Why would they want the legal hassles of those MG's and whatnot when they can get a 10 gauge shotgun?

Oddly, one of my players wanted to play: "A priest with a shotgun." ... I laughed and shook my head, thinking immediately of the Medallions game.

His priest, though, seems to be based more off of the movie "The Order" ... a rogue priest of the now-defunct Carolingian order. A little more heroic than I wanted, but I AM starting them at 3rd, so, it represents his knowledge of the weird, I guess. We're diving right in with the group as agents of The Hoffmann Institute.

--fje

 

[SSquirrel]

Has anyone converted the CP2020 rules for Friday Night Firefight to d20? Seems like that would add all the realism you could need and also manage to make firearms as deadly as possible....which is pretty true. Was looking at my CP2020 last night while making a character just for random fun.


Hagen

 

[Dana_Jorgensen]

Has anyone converted the CP2020 rules for Friday Night Firefight to d20? Seems like that would add all the realism you could need and also manage to make firearms as deadly as possible....which is pretty true. Was looking at my CP2020 last night while making a character just for random fun.


Hagen

CP2020's FFNF system is horribly flawed in its excess use of dice. Take a G3 and fire it in full auto, and you've first got a 1d10 roll to hit, then you have to roll 6d6+2 for each bullet that strikes, plus a d10 roll for hit location (1 bullet for every point the die roll exceeds the skill check success number). Fire on somebody at point blank range with a rifle skill of 5, reflex of 10 and a die roll of 5, and that's 15 bullets that hit (half a magazine). And that requires rolling a total of 15d10 and 90d6 to determine damage and hit location.

 

[SSquirrel]

CP2020's FFNF system is horribly flawed in its excess use of dice. Take a G3 and fire it in full auto, and you've first got a 1d10 roll to hit, then you have to roll 6d6+2 for each bullet that strikes, plus a d10 roll for hit location (1 bullet for every point the die roll exceeds the skill check success number). Fire on somebody at point blank range with a rifle skill of 5, reflex of 10 and a die roll of 5, and that's 15 bullets that hit (half a magazine). And that requires rolling a total of 15d10 and 90d6 to determine damage and hit location.

What's your point? It means that either people will gleefully pack loads of dice for theircombats so they can have a realistic damage system or they'll do the sane thing. Avoid combat if at all possible b/c bullets (they don't move near fast enough without a kick in teh pants from a gun) kill people WAY easy in that system.

Could also force people to pull a sneaky and pump their stealth skills and use monogarottes or anything else they can to get the jump on their opponent.

I mean, if we want realism, isn't a bit of hassle expected? *grin*

Hagen

 

[Dana_Jorgensen]

What's your point? It means that either people will gleefully pack loads of dice for theircombats so they can have a realistic damage system or they'll do the sane thing. Avoid combat if at all possible b/c bullets (they don't move near fast enough without a kick in teh pants from a gun) kill people WAY easy in that system.

Could also force people to pull a sneaky and pump their stealth skills and use monogarottes or anything else they can to get the jump on their opponent.

I mean, if we want realism, isn't a bit of hassle expected? *grin*

Hagen

Okay, the second problem with CP2020's FNFF system is the fact that it isn't realistic. There are very, very few automatic weapons in this world that would be able to put 10 rounds into the same target at 5 feet, let alone 10, 20, 30 or more. All the guns have the same range, another unrealistic feature. damage isn't properly determined for everything (7.62mm does 6d6+2, 20mm does 4d10, .50BMG does 6d10 IIRC).

 

[S'mon]

Yeah, FNFF kinda sucks IMO - try Twilight: 2000 2e instead.

 

[ledded]

Yea. That's what I meant. If the gun has a burstfire setting, then you can use it to get a +2 on the attack, though you burn 3 rounds for it. As it stands, an "untrained" person does nothing more than waste ammo, even with the burst limiter in place.

Ah. Thought so. Makes sense to me.

As do I, as do I. I'm saying 0-2 more DICE of damage, representing an additional graze or single additional hit as you TRY to "hose" the one guy in the area of effect. If more than one person is there, trying to spread the bullets out to hit everyone uses autofire as normal. This would make autofire on one person a little more lethal, though there's still a 30% chance that you don't get any extra hits in, regardless. Maybe raise the percentage for getting NO extra damage. Hrm. This one is still REALLY up in the air. Just a thought I had. A bone to throw to the people who want to "open up" on somebody ... it isn't really going to do much extra damage, but at least they'll FEEL badass.

Heh heh, you mean feel badass like that guy who opened up on John Travolta and Samuel Jackson in Pulp Fiction?

I get what you are saying though.

Oddly, one of my players wanted to play: "A priest with a shotgun." ... I laughed and shook my head, thinking immediately of the Medallions game.

His priest, though, seems to be based more off of the movie "The Order" ... a rogue priest of the now-defunct Carolingian order. A little more heroic than I wanted, but I AM starting them at 3rd, so, it represents his knowledge of the weird, I guess. We're diving right in with the group as agents of The Hoffmann Institute.

--fje

Cool. Pierce definitely came up with a very unique character for that game. He is in such a cool place now with how he's developed that preacher. I can't wait for the SH to catch up to us.

I've have a good idea for my next Modern character for Medallions that is either going to be a similar Catholic priest or a Kaballist Rabbi... either one would be a lot of fun in that game.

 

[WaterRabbit]

The problem I have with firearms in d20 is they don’t scale damage at the same rate as melee weapons. Firearms vary from 2d4 to 2d12. However, if we look at a bow, it will do a 1d8+STR bonus damage. So, a character with a STR Bonus of +4 will do 8.5 points of damage on average per hit. This is just shy of the average damage a 2d8 AK-47, but with a higher minimum. Crossbows allow a low strength person to fire a projectile at a higher effective strength. A heavy crossbow should do at least 1d10+4 points of damage. A firearm extends this even further. IMO, firearms should have an additive damage modifier in addition to or instead of bonus dice. In all d20 system games there becomes a point in which a melee character does significantly more damage per round than a ranged character.

For example, at 5th level a Strong Hero with a Two-Handed sword (2d6, 19-20 x2) and Power Attack, without Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or a STR bonus will do 10.29 points of damage per round on average against AC 10 (assuming he power attacks equal to his BAB). That same character with a Desert Eagle (2d8, 20x2) firing at an AC 10 target at 40 feet, without Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or a DEX bonus to hit will do 2.84 points of damage per round.

It just get worse when iterative attacks, STR bonus, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization (Soldier class), etc. However, if the target is unarmored and is hit in the chest with either a two-handed sword or a .50AE round the effect is the same.

So, in a nutshell my problem with ranged weapons is that they don’t scale damage at the same rate as melee weapons. If your character is close enough to charge his target, then why would he even bother with a ranged weapon?

 

[nobodez]

So, in a nutshell my problem with ranged weapons is that they don’t scale damage at the same rate as melee weapons. If your character is close enough to charge his target, then why would he even bother with a ranged weapon?

Well, from where I see it, it's stems from two things.

1) Guns are easy to hide - not with slight of hand, but in general. Guns are much more common in today's society, and so they fit in.

2) So, you took how many feats, classes, and whatnot just to match an M16 that any dumb schmoe can just pick up? Also, you can specialize in a gun just as much as with a melee weapon, and you can't get HE Longswords, but you can get HE 5.56mm rounds (or if you prefer, .50AE).

A third, though much smaller point, is what made firearms popular in the first place, they are the great equalizer. It takes many years to become an expert in a melee weapon, while a firearm deals just as much damage when you pick it up.