D&D 5E Problems with Polymorph, True Polymorph, and Shapechange

[Hawk Diesel]

But you aren't transforming into multiple creatures with your spell.

You are transforming into 3-6 kinds, plus basically a cosmetic illusion.

You fundamentally aren't a wolf, trex, octopus, mammoth, etc. Saying "but you can look like one" doesn't make you one.

If there was vague words like "and you have the physical capabilities of the form you assume" then you'd be that form, but that just punts the effort from a MM entry to the DM.

Sorry, but help me understand. When you look at a wolf stat block, what about it makes it inherently a wolf? What about the T-Rex or Mammoth stat blocks makes them those creatures? Aside from calling it a beast type versus a construct, why is the giant ape stat block a giant ape versus a warforged titan? A stat block is just a grouping of mechanical numbers and abilities. But we call it a wolf or a T-Rex because that is what the designers called them and we as players have agreed to accept that. But once you strip away that agreement, none of those numbers or abilities would signal to anyone "Oh yea! That's a T-Rex! I could tell because its a big animal and it has a bite attack and tail attack!" Sure, that fits on a T-Rex, but it also fits for any number of creatures. T-Rex's don't own a monopoly on being big animals and having a tail and a bite. And what about that bite attack of theirs actually makes it a bite? Is it that 4d12 damage? Is it that 10ft reach? Maybe the fact that it restrains or deals piercing damage? Because a really strong and thorny vine from a mystical plant monster can fit that same bill.

All I'm saying is that stat blocks are stat blocks. They aren't the creatures they represent until we say they are. When it comes to creating mechanics for a system like 5e, the mechanics and game balance don't care how much they resemble or simulate the what is real or imagined. What matters is the achieved effect or impact by their existence and usage in the game, and how those mechanics relate to other mechanics. Mechanics create the foundation and boundaries for an RPG, and the rest is filled in by the imaginations of the players and DM.

 

[NotAYakk]

It is a X monster stat block because they started with the fiction, then built the stat block.

The T-Rex, for example, has a 4d12 piercing attack that also grabs and restrains medium or smaller creatures.

It also has a 3d8 bludgeoning attack that doesn't work on the same target as the piercing attack.

You could warp that into some kind of plant monster, yes, but the reason why the tail doesn't work on the same target as the bite is that it would look stupid for a t-rex to whack things in its mouth with its tail.

If you where going to make a plant monster with thorny vines, you'd probably not have a tail attack. You might have multiple vine attacks that did piercing damage. Restrained would probably happen if two of them hit the same target.

The plant monster is probably not going to have a 50' land speed (the t-rex does because it has long legs, and jurassic park says it runs fast; if science agrees, bonus), but maybe it can climb with its vines.

Balance wise, this is going to be quite similar. But the details of what it can do and how it works will be different if you start with the fiction than if you force fiction into the fixed mechanics.

5e quite intentionally moves away from that model. Fiction comes first, then mechanics follow, then a balance pass is done informed by the fiction.

Yours is closer to "aspect of the brute" than "transform into an animal" mechanics-wise.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

It is a X monster stat block because they started with the fiction, then built the stat block.

The T-Rex, for example, has a 4d12 piercing attack that also grabs and restrains medium or smaller creatures.

It also has a 3d8 bludgeoning attack that doesn't work on the same target as the piercing attack.

You could warp that into some kind of plant monster, yes, but the reason why the tail doesn't work on the same target as the bite is that it would look stupid for a t-rex to whack things in its mouth with its tail.

If you where going to make a plant monster with thorny vines, you'd probably not have a tail attack. You might have multiple vine attacks that did piercing damage. Restrained would probably happen if two of them hit the same target.

The plant monster is probably not going to have a 50' land speed (the t-rex does because it has long legs, and jurassic park says it runs fast; if science agrees, bonus), but maybe it can climb with its vines.

Balance wise, this is going to be quite similar. But the details of what it can do and how it works will be different if you start with the fiction than if you force fiction into the fixed mechanics.

5e quite intentionally moves away from that model. Fiction comes first, then mechanics follow, then a balance pass is done informed by the fiction.

Yours is closer to "aspect of the brute" than "transform into an animal" mechanics-wise.

I'm sure the designers did not just start with the fiction and work from there. D&D is a Role Playing Game. You can't ignore the aspect of the game, and while the fiction can guide the mechanical design, that is not the only consideration. I would say it is a parallel process, rather than starting with the game or the role playing.

Polymorph is a great example of this. Polymorph literally means many forms. It doesn't mean many animal forms. Yet the designers intentionally limited the forms to "beasts" which is a very specific term related to their mechanics and design for creatures. The designers understood that Polymorph should let you change into many things. But if they opened it up to anything that would break the game via the mechanics. They also specifically chose "beasts" rather than "beasts and monstrosities" because mechanically all beasts are limited in their abilities based on physical stats. Beasts with wings can fly. Big beasts are strong. Small beasts can sneak and burrow. They don't come with innate magical abilities like other creatures might. So while it would absolutely fit the fiction for a spell like polymorph to allow someone to assume the form of a gargoyle or beholder, that would ultimately harm the game if they also took on the stats of such creatures.

I'm not saying my version of the spell is perfect. It is not for the pure simulationist that expects all mechanics to accurately match real or imagined expectations. But I would say that my version is 1) Self-contained not requiring the Monster Manual, 2) Relatively balanced compared to what the original spell could accomplish (analysis still needs to be done between 4th level spells), and 3) It is a good enough model. It won't perfectly simulate every single possible creature. But there are enough options to represent most creatures while solving the primary problems the original Polymorph spell typically addresses.

Also, the thorny vine was an example. Please don't underestimate my ability to reimagine the T-Rex stat block into a plant monster that makes sense, or any number of creatures that just as easily fit the stat block. The same goes for any other stat block. In the end, those are numbers and sets of abilities. While they attempt to simulate what they are meant to represent, that doesn't mean they couldn't easily or successfully represent other things. Also, don't assume that those numbers and abilities a necessary to simulate the thing they are meant to represent. Even the designers have said the stat blocks represent typical creatures of their kind, but that individuals may differ.

 

[nevin]

pathfinder fixes for everything are cumbersome because they view everything a player does to thier benefit to be cheating.

I think the key with Polymorph is that no special abilities. Dm's myself included tend to let things they shouldn't slip by. Physical stats become the creature, so taking your big fighter with a st of 24, and an AC of 25 and turning him into a wolf doesn't make him a wolf with a 24 st and a 25 AC. Mental stats I'd leave the same. If you are a cat you shouldn't get the natural abilities that animal's learn when growin up.. If your a wolf you don't get trip, you didn't grow up with the pack they didn't teach it too you. Other than movement abilities and normal perception abilities , because it would just be asinine to tell the character in raven form they can't fly, or in bat form they can't see with sonar. No Rake for big cats, no grapple for bears etc. If you take a humanoid form you know the weapons you know. Now with shapechange you get those abilities but it's a 9th level spell I don't see a problem.

 

[nevin]

I'm sure the designers did not just start with the fiction and work from there. D&D is a Role Playing Game. You can't ignore the aspect of the game, and while the fiction can guide the mechanical design, that is not the only consideration. I would say it is a parallel process, rather than starting with the game or the role playing.

Polymorph is a great example of this. Polymorph literally means many forms. It doesn't mean many animal forms. Yet the designers limited the forms to "beasts" which is a very specific term related to their mechanics and design for creatures. The designers understood that Polymorph should let you change into many things. But if they opened it up to anything that would break the game via the mechanics. It would absolutely fit the fiction, but ultimately harm the game.

I'm not saying my version of the spell is perfect. It is not for the pure simulationist that expects all mechanics to accurately match real or imagined expectations. But I would say that my version is 1) Self-contained not requiring the Monster Manual, 2) Relatively balanced compared to what the original spell could accomplish (analysis still needs to be done between 4th level spells), and 3) It is a good enough model. It won't perfectly simulate every single possible creature. But there are enough options to represent most creatures while solving the primary problems the original Polymorph spell typically addresses.

Also, the thorny vine was an example. Please don't underestimate my ability to reimagine the T-Rex stat block into a plant monster that makes sense, or any number of creatures that just as easily fit the stat block. The same goes for any other stat block. In the end, those are numbers and sets of abilities. While they attempt to simulate what they are meant to represent, that doesn't mean they couldn't easily or successfully represent other things. Also, don't assume that those numbers and abilities a necessary to simulate the thing they are meant to represent. Even the designers have said the stat blocks represent typical creatures of their kind, but that individuals may differ.

I agree. I also think people overestimate the effect of polymorph. A T rex is not game breaking. By the the time you get polymorph. A fighter with a weapon and good armor can do more damage and is harder to hit than a T Rex. So when you Polymorph him he becomes AC 13 and maybe can do more damage if he has multiple attacks.

Plant creature same thing suddenly your more susceptible to cold or fire damage. Also Polymorph doesn't give you the feats or special abilities of the animals. So you don't get that awesome Grapple the real T rex has. You just get to do damage.

Honestly polymorph is far better as a non combat spell than as a combat spell. for spying and stealth it's hard to beat.

 

[NotAYakk]

If you start with "thorny plant" and honestly make 5e mechanics, you would never, ever end up with 5e trex stats.

You can fake it and retcon, but you end up with a fundamentally different experience. You end up with generic stats that don't have the texture of fiction-first, or a cludge forcing something to follow stats.

There is a "balance" pass after you convert fiction to mechanics. The existence of that pass does not mean starting with mechanics results in the same experience. Fiction-first isn't "only fiction".

In this case, combat-wise beasts are brutes who deal and soak damage. So a polymorph spell bounded by CR will produce a reasonable range of power for mid-level spell.

Strength wise, a polymorph gives you another HP pool to burn through without significantly decreasing the ally's damage output. It is quite strong.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Reskinnning basic stat blocks works just fine. A T. rex and a killer whale can have the exact same stats. One has a tail attack and the other has swallow. One has a land speed and the other has a swim speed.

Easy to make up on the fly. On one hand, I could see the spell getting a little dull for the players, on the other hand, I could see it as fun to reimagine those stat blocks and see what the players can pull out of their hat. Your stat blocks could even have less detail. Let the form they choose dictate the special abilities.

Edit: to boot, you’ll see less T-rexes and a bigger variety of creatures because there will be no more one ‘ideal’ form for a specific level.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

@NotAYakk - I honestly think we are at an impasse. It's clear that you are much more simulationist in how you approach the game. And that's great and I wish you well with that! We are coming from different approaches and are not going to see eye to eye. But that is not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to reduce the complexity of a spell that I find problematic. I want to eliminate a player's need to use and access the Monster Manual as a mechanical game resource. And I am ok with a "good enough" model rather than creating new stat blocks or multiple spells to cover all the possibilities that the original Polymorph spell covers.

So you may not agree with my presuppositions. You may not accept the problems that I am trying to address with my revised versions of Polymorph, and similar such spells, even exist. But if you can't critique or assess my revisions from that perspective, then I'm not sure any further discussion will be productive. I'm not really interested in debating the merits of simulationist approaches to mechanics, whether mechanics can or should be reskinned, or the degree to which a player should be able to use the Monster Manual as an in-game resource. I believe I've clearly stated the problems I'm trying to address and my design philosophy, and I'm pretty firm in my position.

I would certainly welcome any and all feedback. But the MOST helpful feedback would focus on the mechanics I've presented, how they might affect game balance, unintended consequences of my version of the spell, and how my mechanics compare to other 4th level spells.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I would certainly welcome any and all feedback. But the MOST helpful feedback would focus on the mechanics I've presented, how they might affect game balance, unintended consequences of my version of the spell, and how my mechanics compare to other 4th level spells.

I can’t comment on mechanics without looking a bit closer but, thinking about it more, I could use these rules to polymorph someone into a Dire Moose with a Gore and/or Trample attack. I like it. It goes well with maple syrup.

I’ll peruse it tomorrow and give some more specific feedback

 

[Hawk Diesel]

Alright, I think I've managed to tackle Shapechange. Below is my revised version, and below that are some of my thoughts and reasons:

Shapechange​

9th-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (a jade circlet worth at least 1,500gp, which you must place on your head before you cast the spell)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

You assume the form of a different creature for the duration. For the duration of the spell, you gain the following benefits:

• You gain 150 Temporary Hit Points
• You can choose to become Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, or Gargantuan. If your form is Tiny, Small, or Medium your Dexterity becomes 25. If your form is Large, Huge, or Gargantuan your Strength becomes 25.
• You lose your normal movement modes, instead choosing a new primary and secondary movement. Your primary movement becomes 120ft and your secondary movement becomes 60ft. You can choose Walking, Flying, Swimming, Spiderclimb, or Teleport. Alternatively, you can choose a Burrow speed for one of your movement modes, but this is limited to 30 feet regardless if it is your primary or secondary movement mode. Burrowing allows you to move through nonmagical, unworked earth and stone without disturbing the material as you move through it.
• You can safely breathe while in air, water, earth, stone, or toxic gasses.
• You gain Darkvision 120ft and Blindsight 60ft.
• You become immune to being Blinded, Deafened, Grappled, Petrified, Poisoned, or Restrained.
• As a reaction can pass through a space as narrow as 1 inch wide without squeezing.
• You can choose to become immune to one energy type.
• You gain up to three special attacks that deal 2d10 damage and is modified by your spellcasting modifier. These attacks count as magical. When you choose your form, you can choose for your special attacks to be melee or ranged (60/120ft), and whether they deal bludgeoning, piercing, slashing, or the same damage type you have chosen as your immunity. When you take the Attack action, you can make up to 3 of these attacks.

When you transform, you choose whether your equipment falls to the ground, merges into the new form, or is worn by it. Equipment that is melded into your new form or worn continues to functions as normal.

You choose the physical characteristics of the form you assume. If you are attempting to pass as a specific creature who you have seen and with whom you are familiar, you gain a +15 bonus to Deception checks to pass as that individual.

During this spell’s duration, you can use your action to assume a different form, changing one or more of the above choices.

*********

So this spell is obviously very different from Shapechange. One of the big differences is that it doesn't allow you to use abilities like a Dragon's breath weapon or similar such abilities of high CR creatures. But I also feel like that quality is one of the things that made Shapechange incredibly problematic. It put Shapechange over most other damage dealing 9th level spells. For example, compare an almost always on Dragon's Breath to something like Blade of Disaster, Power Word Kill, and Weird. Whereas Shapechange seems like it should be a utility spell, the ability to consistently use Dragon's Breath makes it deal waaaay more damage than other 9th-level spells that are direct damage dealing spells. Only Meteor Swarm and Storm of Vengeance compare. But since Shapechange lasts for up to an hour, Shapechange can potentially deal more damage through Dragon's Breath than Meteor Swarm. And the only reason Storm of Vengeance is able to compare is due to the sheer immensity of the area of effect.

Personally, I think Shapechange should stick to altering physical appearance and traits without including things like Dragon's Breath. A 9th level version of Dragon's Breath (the 2nd-level spell) might be a good way to go for a consistent damage dealing spell. But Shapechange should stick to utility. And I think I found a way to achieve that while also negating the need for the Monster Manual.