Profession/Crafting skills: Why?

[I'm A Banana]

I can't see a purpose for having any sort of profession or craft skill.

Perhaps there's just a disconnect between those that like the craft/profession skills and my taste in games

Answered your own question, boyo.

Honestly, it has to do with the "forgotten" mundane tier, in my mind. The idea that you start killing rats in a sewer and being spat on by beggars means that your rusty pen-knife will probably break at some point, and you will be forced to engineer a chiv. The idea that you have a family that taught you a medieval trade. The idea that your skill can become your kung fu (I bake with the power of chi! I am such a great tailor my needle can slay fiends!). The magic in a craft performed well (items becoming magical simply because you have a high enough Craft check, rather than necessarily needing to go on seven collection quests).

It's kind of the same reason that gods need to be gods of agriculture and civics in addition to being gods of swords and elves. You need a reason for them to exist, to be rooted in the NPC world, so that they don't just spring fully formed from their mothers womb with the power to shoot divine radiance from their nads.

That said, there are a lot of effective ways to handle this that run a pretty large gamut of styles. I mean, you can go the WoW-ish route of using it to craft magic or superior items (and making sure to include things like exotic diamonds, gold thread, etc. in treasure). You can go the d20Modern route of basically having a job that gives you some wealth and some skills. There's a continuum. "Craft and Profession Skills" a la 3e is just one way, and, very arguably, not the best way, to handle this.

 

[Tetsubo]

Under 3.5 a Warforged without an appropriate Craft skill couldn't "heal" itself.

I've never played a fighter type without a Craft skill. And never had a campaign wherein it didn't see use. A Dwarf without a Craft skill is a sad thing.

 

[Delta]

The idea that you start killing rats in a sewer and being spat on by beggars...

LOL. Beautiful.

 

[Delta]

Actually, I read the 3.5E skill description of Profession from the SRD...

As I hopefully pointed out, using Profession to set the DC of a task makes no sense since the skill primarily is tied to how much money you can make in a week and NOT how well you do your job.

And yet somehow you missed the 2nd part in (3.5 SRD): "Try Again: Varies. An attempt to use a Profession skill to earn an income cannot be retried... An attempt to accomplish some specific task can usually be retried."

So it looks like you're not going to admit that your snide comments are in direct contradiction to the core-rules/PHB quote I pointed out. Not engaging further.

 

[AllisterH]

So you're not going to admit that your snide comments are in direct contradiction to the PHB quote I pointed out. Not engaging further.

Hmm...I was working on the SRD and if you want me to admit that I was wrong about what it says then I'm wrong.

Still doesn't change the fact that as mentioned in the SRD, that the primary use of the skill is to make money in a week. There's also the fact that using it in such a manner such that you can make a Profession check to accomplish a task makes hash of the rest of the skill system.

You haven't actually explained how the Profession skill actually is a good thing though. Hell, in fact, nobody on this thread has actually argued for Profession.

Seen decent arguments for and against the implementation of a CRAFT system.

But Profession? Nope, not one and I've actually raised points as to the problem with the use of the skill.

 

[I'm A Banana]

You haven't actually explained how the Profession skill actually is a good thing though. Hell, in fact, nobody on this thread has actually argued for Profession.

As a skill, it perhaps lacks something.

I'm a fan of using "Profession" as a replacement/adjunct to "Class Skills." If you're a sailor, you get Athletics (climbing the rigging!) and Perception (land ahoy!) and Acrobatics (swinging from the ropes and balancing on storm-tossed seas!) and maybe Nature (red sky at morning, sailor take warning).

As an express skill in and of itself, you've basically got its problem -- it either makes other skills superfluous (though this can be solved to a certain degree with a sort of 'nonproficiency' penalty of -5 or something) or it's mostly useless for PC's (when you're raiding dungeons for phatty lewt, a handful of GP in a week is chump change).

A profession system of some sort is useful for that "mundane tier," but as presented in 3e as a skill, it has some problems.

 

[AllisterH]

As a skill, it perhaps lacks something.

I'm a fan of using "Profession" as a replacement/adjunct to "Class Skills." If you're a sailor, you get Athletics (climbing the rigging!) and Perception (land ahoy!) and Acrobatics (swinging from the ropes and balancing on storm-tossed seas!) and maybe Nature (red sky at morning, sailor take warning). .

I actually agree with this and in fact, other RPGs have such a system where you take a broad skill and allow one to use it for specific subsystems but that's because said systems don't have specific skills like Balance and Climb.

As an express skill in and of itself, you've basically got its problem -- it either makes other skills superfluous (though this can be solved to a certain degree with a sort of 'nonproficiency' penalty of -5 or something) or it's mostly useless for PC's (when you're raiding dungeons for phatty lewt, a handful of GP in a week is chump change).

Even the nonproficiency penalty, unless it is extreme, makes the broad skills too attractive. Take Profession (Sailor) as the classic example (you know, as an aside, why is it always seemed to be Sailor?).

You can either spend a point in Profession (Sailor) or have to spend a point in Spot, Climb, Balance, Use Rope, Survival and Knowledge (Nature) to match that? You know what people are taking.

A profession system of some sort is useful for that "mundane tier," but as presented in 3e as a skill, it has some problems.

Even in the mundane tier, how long is it actually useful for? By level 3, I think you're actually making more money just plain adventuring.

Against the mundane opponents, it still would be better to use the specific skills in skill vs skill contests.

 

[Emirikol]

I agree with you that profession and craft aren't a huge loss to the game.

Our game, currently set in the WARHAMMER FANTASY world, uses Careers/professions..but we don't need "rules" to tell us that stuff. Players choose a "career" for their character and it's effective for roleplaying. That's all we need! Character background doesn't need "rules" for everything.

Rules rules rules. D&D is smothered in rules as it is.

Our campaign book on the subject is here: Emirikol's Maptools and General Projects



jh

 

[Skaven_13]

The last game that I played in used craft skills heavily, mainly for determining how well an item was made. The dwarf in our party also had a code that he would not wear armor or use a weapon that was not crafted by his own hand.

I want to pose this question about the Profession skill. Has anyone taken the profession skill as a way to get around having to take a lot of cross class skills? Since the profession skill is a class skill for almost all of the classes (only cross class for barbarian and fighter) and can cover tasks that might be part of cross class skills, even if it is in a limited capacity?

For example, a bard that takes profession: sailor (the most popular profession on this thread ) can repair sails (a craft skill, class skill), tie knots (use rope, cross class), and has some minor survival skills related to being at sea (survival, cross class). So instead of having to worry about spending the extra skill points on cross class skills, the bard can fall back on his training as a sailor to get him through.

Now, you could say that the profession should be defined by taking the skills. With the cost of cross class skills, combined with the fact that a lot of the classes receive an inadequate amount of skill points per level, the profession skill could be an option to get a broader skill base, even if it is limited in function.

Thoughts?

Skaven13

 

[I'm A Banana]

Even in the mundane tier, how long is it actually useful for? By level 3, I think you're actually making more money just plain adventuring.

I don't think adventurers should be using the profession skill to make money directly very often (though NPCs could probably use it like that?).

They might be using it to bake a cake for the goblin king in which they cleverly disguise a poison, or using it to avoid sailing their ship into the part of the map with all the sea monsters on it, or using it in a contest against the Duergar forger who is the favored of the king and thus is getting inside information he's passing on to the goblin army outside or something. They should be using it for adventures, because they are adventurers.

There's plenty of adventure to be had in a profession-style challenge, and in using your mundane skills for heroic ends (fairy tales are filled with brave tailors and enchanted cobblers and magical forges and poor shepherds who use their skills to save the kingdom). 4e kind of assumes no one really wants to do that, which is why it's not a big concern for them.

Some kind of profession system could give support for this kind of adventure. The 3e Profession skill wasn't really the best at it (though you could use it in a pinch), but 4e doesn't even give that tiny little nod.

A profession skill after the "mundane tier" should become useless just like a magic missile becomes useless after the "heroic tier." Because you have entered a new epoch of skill, it's okay if it turns into something else (say, magic item crafting?).