D&D 5E Proficiencies don't make the class. Do they?

[Twiggly the Gnome]

My litmus test for an on theme Artificer is if it's supernatural abilities are object oriented. Does the ability enhance an object, create an object, or originate from an object? If the answer is no, the Artificer shouldn't be able to do it. In my opinion, the Wizificer fails that test.

 

[Remathilis]

My litmus test for an on theme Artificer is if it's supernatural abilities are object oriented. Does the ability enhance an object, create an object, or originate from an object? If the answer is no, the Artificer shouldn't be able to do it. In my opinion, the Wizificer fails that test.

Yes to all three. An artificer can create an item from whole cloth (wall of stone or call armor), make a mundane item magical using his power (turn a normal sword to +1, make a belt grant strength), or augment an existing item (changing a fire weapon to frost, adding extra charges to an item).

 

[Minigiant]

Yes to all three. An artificer can create an item from whole cloth (wall of stone or call armor), make a mundane item magical using his power (turn a normal sword to +1, make a belt grant strength), or augment an existing item (changing a fire weapon to frost, adding extra charges to an item).

But how does it kill orcs?

That's the key question?
A class's creature killing feature is one of its biggest class feature. Often the biggest.

So how does a level 6 artificer kill an orc?
Cast fireball?
Make a wand of fireball?
Attack twice with a +1 sword via Extra Attack?
Attack once with a +1 sword and 3d6 Sneak Attack?

 

[nomotog]

But how does it kill orcs?

That's the key question?
A class's creature killing feature is one of its biggest class feature. Often the biggest.

So how does a level 6 artificer kill an orc?
Cast fireball?
Make a wand of fireball?
Attack twice with a +1 sword via Extra Attack?
Attack once with a +1 sword and 3d6 Sneak Attack?

That detail might be the biggest reason why an artificer is different enough for a new class. The artificer doesn't attack the orc, Ok they will, but they don't really get a creature killing feature to do it with. The artificer is primary a support class. They make items and buff. Killing is secondary.

 

[Fralex]

I know I brought this up before, but can we talk about this homebrewed artificer class? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367999-5e-Homebrew-The-Artificer-(of-Alancia)

Because at least in my view this seems like a good place to start in terms of basic mechanics and subclass ideas, and I'd be interested to know what others think of it. The basic idea is, you have a "spellbook," that works like a wizard's spellbook except you can add spells from any class (well, actually just wizard, cleric, and druid) to the book. To cast a spell, first you spend ten minutes inventing a device designed to hold that specific spell, then spend a spell slot to store the spell in the invention. Once, at any time before the end of the day, you can activate the device to have it cast the spell you stuck into it. Under normal circumstances, only you can activate these devices, and they must be in your possession to continue running. However, there are class options that let you get around these hurdles.

There are four "vocations" an artificer can specialize in: Alchemy, magic guns, magic bombs, and constructs. Of the four, I think the alchemist and construct-builder are the best-realized, although the alchemist is perhaps a little too much like the Pathfinder class rather then its own thing (which isn't necessarily bad, mind you). The construct-builder I think is very clever, in that the basic ability is to turn a piece of armor into a sort of power suit with a couple special abilities (like slam attacks and magic devices you've made today), and then later your power suits can be made to run without you inside them. Main issue I have with this one is it doesn't seem to be trying to handle things the way established "pet" classes do with regards to things like the action economy.

What do the rest of you think?

 

[nomotog]

I don't like the idea of invention slots. It feels too much like a repaint of spells. An artificer's magic items should be different then spells because they aren't spells. Can we balance the class around the idea that their items work like items and not spells?

 

[Fralex]

I don't like the idea of invention slots. It feels too much like a repaint of spells. An artificer's magic items should be different then spells because they aren't spells. Can we balance the class around the idea that their items work like items and not spells?

Well I mean it's basically making spell-storing item into a class feature, so it doesn't seem that different to me from the original artificer. Scrolls are items that work like spells.

 

[Minigiant]

That detail might be the biggest reason why an artificer is different enough for a new class. The artificer doesn't attack the orc, Ok they will, but they don't really get a creature killing feature to do it with. The artificer is primary a support class. They make items and buff. Killing is secondary.

All classes have combat ability in 5th edition. A player can choose not to use it but it's there. All 5th classes have combat, exploration, and interaction features.

So an artificer needs a combat feature or it loses its reason to exist as a class.

 

[nomotog]

Well I mean it's basically making spell-storing item into a class feature, so it doesn't seem that different to me from the original artificer. Scrolls are items that work like spells.

Scrolls work like spells when used, but you can keep a scroll on a shelf for years without it expiring. Your not limited to only having so many of them at a time. That is the detail that bugs me. I just don't want it to play like the pathfinder alchemist with it's potions per day thing.

 

[Remathilis]

All classes have combat ability in 5th edition. A player can choose not to use it but it's there. All 5th classes have combat, exploration, and interaction features.

So an artificer needs a combat feature or it loses its reason to exist as a class.

An artificer can swing a weapon he enchanted, he can use a scroll to cast a spell not on his list, or he can infuse a temp item for him or his allies to use. All of which can kill the orc.