Project Sigil Project Sigil Updates: D&D's 3d Virtual Tabletop

Project Sigil is the upcoming 3D VTT from WotC. From various Gen Con reports --

• Creative Mode lets you prep on the fly or modify pre-made content
• Assets from Baldur's Gate 3 are included, such as the characters as digital miniatures
• Minis have multiple poses but are not animated
• Spells are animated though
• Uses Unreal Engine 5 (or 4, I've seen different reports)
• Launch on PC, mobiles and consoles later
• Closed Beta this fall--sign up here
• DDB subscribers will have greater access

This is the 'creative mode' toolbox, apparently!​

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Why are people saying it doesn't then?

No clue, but I posted a quote from D&D that says it does

Edit or I guess our definitions of integration is different

 

[MonsterEnvy]

no, I did not insert an assumption into my statement, I clarified that my statement should not be taken as one

I stand by what I said, us not having heard about it is not the same as it not being supported. It being supported is pretty far down the line of important features, so if it ends up missing, I very much doubt that it is a death knell. Unless you have more than a lack of information, I do not think there is more to say on this

Honestly the fact that it’s basically a GM tool kind of means it’s supporting GMs by default

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You're assuming that building maps is similar to games from 20 years ago using tools for a video game which has completely different requirements. I don't know how easy or difficult it will be to do anything with Sigil and neither do you.

Yes, I am, because what we've seen of their tools and what they've said about them is similar to games from 2006 (NWN2) and 2015 (Sword Coast Legends) and 2021 (Solasta, which has a map-maker). There are also various 3D dungeon builders designed to work well and fast available on PC. WotC also haven't claimed this map-making tool is revolutionary in its speed or efficiency, which you might expect them to if it was.

You can go full Fox Mulder and say "You don't know, you can't prove it! I want to believe!", and obviously that's fine, but like, I think I actually can make a reasonable prediction. Like I said, you're talking about 10-fold reduction in time, and you don't even have a speculative mechanism of action as to how that would be possible. I'm not trying to be mean here, but it's quite an extreme belief to hold on absolutely no basis whatsoever, including WotC not even claiming that's the case. I could believe it might be, say, twice as fast just from a much, much better UI as result of bigger investment, testing, etc., but ten times faster? I'm looking at the maps they've shown, and if that stuff is all manually placed, there's just no way.

The only mechanism I can see which could do ten times faster is a heavy procedural approach (i.e. you drop a general room "type", it fills it in etc.) like Dungeon Alchemist, but we haven't heard any suggestion that this tool does stuff like that yet AFAIK. Be cool if they have it, but I dunno why they wouldn't be shouting about it.

No clue, but I posted a quote from D&D that says it does

Edit or I guess our definitions of integration is different

Where did you post the quote?

I don't think the definition of integration is different, I think you just missed direct vs. indirect. Most VTTs (maybe all) use indirect right now. Sounds like this will too - which is cool, honestly.

 

[Parmandur]

The only mechanism I can see which could do ten times faster is a heavy procedural approach (i.e. you drop a general room "type", it fills it in etc.) like Dungeon Alchemist, but we haven't heard any suggestion that this tool does stuff like that yet AFAIK. Be cool if they have it, but I dunno why they wouldn't be shouting about it.

That sort of feature is a major part of Unreal 5, which is what they are building with.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

That sort of feature is a major part of Unreal 5, which is what they are building with.

LOL.

Absolutely not the same thing. That's a full-on developer tool and basically only for open-world stuff, not something players could piss around with to make maps. Unless you mean the the plant/rock/texture detail-generator, which I am very sure they are not running because it's evident in screenshots and would also not help in the way described.

So I would say you maybe want to delve a little deeper than "I saw this engine had a buzzword associated with so I assume it's a fully untrained-user friendly thing anyone could use!", before making assertions about it.

https://dev.epicgames.com/community/learning/tutorials/j4xJ/unreal-engine-introduction-to-procedural-generation-plugin-in-ue5-3

https://dev.epicgames.com/documentation/en-us/unreal-engine/procedural-content-generation-overview

 

[Parmandur]

LOL.

Absolutely not the same thing. That's a full-on developer tool and basically only for open-world stuff, not something players could piss around with to make maps. Unless you mean the the plant/rock/texture detail-generator, which I am very sure they are not running because it's evident in screenshots and would also not help in the way described.

So I would say you maybe want to delve a little deeper than "I saw this engine had a buzzword associated with so I assume it's a fully untrained-user friendly thing anyone could use!", before making assertions about it.

https://dev.epicgames.com/community/learning/tutorials/j4xJ/unreal-engine-introduction-to-procedural-generation-plugin-in-ue5-3

https://dev.epicgames.com/documentation/en-us/unreal-engine/procedural-content-generation-overview

shrug just going on what is reported.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Where did you post the quote?

I don't think the definition of integration is different, I think you just missed direct vs. indirect. Most VTTs (maybe all) use indirect right now. Sounds like this will too - which is cool, honestly.

Earlier in the thread.
Came from this article.

All the D&D announcements from Gen Con 2024 in one place

Updates on the virtual tabletop, Monster Manual, and more

www.gamesradar.com

head of Project Sigil Chris Cao says that you can "easily import existing D&D Beyond maps, characters, and monsters, with built-in rules integration."

But yeah it’s indirect for the most part I think.

 

[tetrasodium]

Honestly the fact that it’s basically a GM tool kind of means it’s supporting GMs by default

Indeed, a VTT is absolutely basically a "GM tool"... It would be more than a little justified being skeptical & questioning a misalignment of priorities If something that is "basically a GM tool" were being marketed exclusively to players & only player facing features were getting talked up. There is a wide difference between a VTT built for usability with the GM in mind & something like flowscape built for eyecandy & the developer's once toddlerish(?) kid...

I don't think that anyone doubts the ability for a professional developer paid to construct adventure maps & such while working closely with the development team of that software... Trouble comes in with the fact that it ceases to be a VTT when the target user is closer to that than "a DM". LaTeX can make some real pretty documents sure, but there's a reason why those pretty .TEX files are so uncommon.

no, I did not insert an assumption into my statement, I clarified that my statement should not be taken as one

I stand by what I said, us not having heard about it is not the same as it not being supported. It being supported is pretty far down the line of important features, so if it ends up missing, I very much doubt that it is a death knell. Unless you have more than a lack of information, I do not think there is more to say on this

It would be mighty strange if Max Maya & so on were to suddenly start marketing to theater goers talking up the movie watching experience or something. Under such a situation We could rightly expect the folks who do professional & hobbyist VFX work for movies & video to scratch their heads & express concern if those companies were exclusively selling their software to the passive consumers of the work done by individuals in those programs rather than to the folks who actually use those software packages. They would also be completely justified in expressing concerns raised by statements made in that mistargeted marketing.

Wotc focusing their VTT outreach exclusively at players while saying concerning things to people with actual experience using the more advanced* vtts. My god we've got one poster claiming that it takes no more effort to make 3d maps with 3d assets than it does to make 2d maps with 2d assets & others saying we should ignore all of the concerning things just silently giving wotc the benefit of the doubt until wotc decides to take the seal of what is currently little more than a vaporware techdemo.

* roll20 barely qualifies & is pretty much bleeding edge webapp from a decade ago with a few extra features. That's not to say that roll20 doesn't have a particular niche that it targets well, just that experience with roll20 is not likely to be especially relevant to leveling the learning curve with modern VTTs

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Indeed, a VTT is absolutely basically a "GM tool"... It would be more than a little justified being skeptical & questioning a misalignment of priorities If something that is "basically a GM tool" were being marketed exclusively to players & only player facing features were getting talked up.

Nah.

I want you to name how this is being marketed exclusively towards players. Cause as a GM it’s for sure seems more appealing to me.

 

[OB1]

Earlier in the thread.
Came from this article.

All the D&D announcements from Gen Con 2024 in one place

Updates on the virtual tabletop, Monster Manual, and more

www.gamesradar.com

But yeah it’s indirect for the most part I think.

Thanks for the link, great article on Sigil!

Getting more and more excited for this. I've always wanted to use 3D terrain for my home game, but the expense never seemed worth it and now my games are almost always online anyhow, first with Roll20 and now with DDB Maps (which has greatly cut down my prep time). But you definitely loose something in 2D (I usually run encounters that really need 3D space TOM instead).