Proposal: Clearing up Cunning Sneak, before it causes to many problems.

[Walking Dad]

After reading this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/272258-mp2-cunning-sneak-stealth-questions.html

I think it would be better to have an official ruling for Cunning Sneak rules using stealth in L4W. As it is, it seems open to many interpretation, so the class concepts usefulness could be negligible or awesome, depending on the DM / judge.

BTW: I want to make a cunning sneak as my 3rd character and at least Alomir wants to convert his rogue to this feature, so it will become a problem, quickly.

 

[renau1g]

Don't really see what the issue is? Have you read MP2?

Also, who's Alomir? The PC in P-Cat's home game? Not sure that relevance.

Cunning Sneak: If you end a move action at least 3 squares away from your starting position, you can make a Stealth check to become hidden if you have any concealment or any cover, except for cover provided by intervening allies.


So if you have cover/concealment (except cover from allies) when you use those powers you can make a stealth check to hide. Simple.

I think the confusion in that thread was from people who just read the powers or didn't have the book and were guessing at things. They hadn't read the Cunning Sneak ability.

 

[Walking Dad]

Yes, I have the MP2 and they actually quoted the Cunning Sneak text. Forget about Alomir (sorry, I somehow confused him with a L4W character)!

But the questions are still there. For example, can I move behind another enemy and be hidden from all enemies but him? What about spirit companions or summons, they don't count as allies, can the rogue hide behind them?

Also there is some strange wording in the Cunning Sneak related rogue powers... there are very good examples in the thread.

BTW: At paragon, can one multiclass into warlock and use paragon multiclassing for getting Shadow Walk for constant stealth?

 

[LadyLaw]

Yea. It's like BTW, if you're a cunning sneak this works like it was a move action even though it was part of a standard action, and in some cases you get to do it twice: once before the attack and once after (if you hit). I don't think there's anything out there that intends to let you hide without either cover or concealment.

Edit: Aaaand I took too long to type that and it looks weird now. FTR I was agreeing with renau1g.

 

[renau1g]

An enemy doesn't provide cover, so no you can't.

Re: companions/summons - I would count them as allies otherwise once you left their square they'd attack you. (shaman) or use their intrinsic attacks to attack you. They're under the control of your ally and don't

Shadow Walk - this I'm less sure of... seems cheezy, but I suppose by RAW you could. If a PC did that in my game there's be lots of dazing monsters or immobilize effects to keep'em from abusing it

 

[Dekana]

I think I'd like to quote covaithe from the Clarification on Howl of Fury thread.

Eh. I don't think we need to codify it that strictly. There are variations in interpretation between different DMs in L4W; always have been, always will be. Example: Mal Malenkirk doesn't allow taking two short rests in a row to use things like Healing Word, to conserve surges. I do.

I'm not interested in dictating exactly how every DM has to run their games; quite the opposite. I don't think this game works at all without the DM using their common sense to arbitrate the (many) gaps and contradictions in the rules that inevitably crop up whenever PCs do their thing.

For instance, I think it's silly to argue that Cleave's secondary damage isn't damage from an attack. The guy hit you with a sword, fer cryin' out loud, and he did it on purpose. Arguing that it's not an attack because it doesn't have the word "attack" next to it, makes me feel like I'm grading papers, or debugging a really badly written program, instead of playing a game.

I think the stealth rules fall into an area of DM interpretation as well. Unlike a proposal to modify an overpowered feat or power, stealth doesn't really need any changing.

 

[Walking Dad]

I think I'd like to quote covaithe from the Clarification on Howl of Fury thread.
I think the stealth rules fall into an area of DM interpretation as well. Unlike a proposal to modify an overpowered feat or power, stealth doesn't really need any changing.

I think there is a big change for the feature to become underpowered (like the clawfighter feat pre-errata). But maybe you are right and play will show that the DMs work with and not against the players.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

If a PC did that in my game there's be lots of dazing monsters or immobilize effects to keep'em from abusing it

And this would be different from normal... how? And don't forget AoEs.

 

[renau1g]

....and auras... don't forget about them

I tried out a new trick on Simple Errand this last battle... Blind! I think worse than the other two (although not worse than the other two combined with an enemy 1 square away so you can't charge )

 

[Dekana]

Blind wouldn't be so terrible by itself, but with it hitting the whole party, using no attack roll, and save ends? Yeah, annoying.