Proposal: Remove the magic item penalty for new characters

[renau1g]

I guess a problem I have is that the assassin seems similar to the Avenger, which I already play here

 

[covaithe]

I do think that someone who retires/dies at level 2, and starts their new char at level 2 with option B, is pretty poor. Someone who retires/dies at 3 is better off, but still I think worse off than they would have been had they resurrected.

What if option B had a different chart for starting wealth, something like:

• Level 1: 100g
• Level 2: 400g
• Level 3: 1200g
• Level 4+: As in the DMG, but minus the cost of a magic item of your level plus one.

That way, there's a small mechanical advantage to retiring at level 2 as opposed to resurrecting. It's about even at level 3, but as you get higher, retiring starts to cost more and more, relative to resurrection. (Until paragon, of course, the cost of resurrection jumps and I've not checked the math.)

 

[Kalidrev]

R1: Actually, from my experience, the Avenger and the Assassin are NOTHING alike. The Assassin is MUCH more mobile than even the pursuit build of the avenger, hits like a friggin' Mac Truck, and (unfortunately) shatters like a thin sheet of ice. The Avenger, however, is more accurate. While all of the avenger builds and the NightStalker build like to get their targets alone, that's pretty much the only similarities in their play. However, this is just from my experiences. YMMV!

 

[renau1g]

I do think that someone who retires/dies at level 2, and starts their new char at level 2 with option B, is pretty poor. Someone who retires/dies at 3 is better off, but still I think worse off than they would have been had they resurrected.

What if option B had a different chart for starting wealth, something like:

• Level 1: 100g
• Level 2: 400g
• Level 3: 1200g
• Level 4+: As in the DMG, but minus the cost of a magic item of your level plus one.

That way, there's a small mechanical advantage to retiring at level 2 as opposed to resurrecting. It's about even at level 3, but as you get higher, retiring starts to cost more and more, relative to resurrection. (Until paragon, of course, the cost of resurrection jumps and I've not checked the math.)

I thought lvl 2 person got 780 gp? Also, if I was to retrain Murphy into an assassin, would I change his magic rod into a magic sword of same level?

R1: Actually, from my experience, the Avenger and the Assassin are NOTHING alike. The Assassin is MUCH more mobile than even the pursuit build of the avenger, hits like a friggin' Mac Truck, and (unfortunately) shatters like a thin sheet of ice. The Avenger, however, is more accurate. While all of the avenger builds and the NightStalker build like to get their targets alone, that's pretty much the only similarities in their play. However, this is just from my experiences. YMMV!

Yeah, I think I finally got the "hang of it". The assassin actually plays like an assassin would. He's best if he can sneak in first, and get his shrouds on the targets before his allies come in (only works with the sneaky-shroud feat). I am liking it a lot now and the changling racial works well for the assassin...

Is it Nov. 6 yet?

 

[Ozymandias79]

I thought lvl 2 person got 780 gp? Also, if I was to retrain Murphy into an assassin, would I change his magic rod into a magic sword of same level?

I say yes (because I am fan of Murphy) but check with the other judges

 

[renau1g]

I'm going to put my cards on the table here. Come November 6th, unless someone blocks it, I fully plan on replacing Haruka the Warlock with Haruka the Assassin. She's an Infernal Pact Warlock currently adventuring with two defenders and two leaders, so I doubt she's going to die before then. I'm not exactly unbiased as to how this turns out. Which probably makes sense, given that I bothered to propose it in the first place.

I'll see what I can do about the not dying part

As an aside, I apologize to THB for derailing the thread. I do think this needs to be addressed as there is a possibility that someone will start with a class (say a lvl2 paladin) and realize that they don't like it (i.e. being a punching bag) so they want to make a new PC. Options are they either make a lvl 1, retire and make a lvl 2 whatever, but giving up potential wealth and being behind the party, therefore being less effective than a group expects him to be (I mean, Grim's got a lvl 5 item right now at lvl 1, so does Murphy).

 

[covaithe]

I thought lvl 2 person got 780 gp?

Only in option A, where they lose a level. In option B, where they stay the same level, they get 780g minus the cost of a level 3 magic item, for a grand total of... 100g.

Here's what the charter currently says, plus some underlining for emphasis.

You have two options when replacing a character:

A) Create the new character one level below the old character. It will start with the following wealth, based on the level of the new character:
Level 1: 100 gp
Level 2: 780 gp
Level 3: 1750 gp
Level 4+: full starting wealth as outlined in the DMG on page 143

B) Create the new character at the same level as the old, with wealth as above but without the magic item at level+1. For example, if you retire a 5th level character and choose option B, the replacement level 5 character would only get magic items at levels 5 and 4, instead of 6, 5, and 4 as the DMG outlines. (If the new character is level 2 or 3, subtract the value of the magic item from the total.)

I'm suggesting changing it like so:

You have two options when replacing a character:

A) Create the new character one level below the old character. It will start with the following wealth, based on the level of the new character:
Level 1: 100 gp
Level 2: 780 gp
Level 3: 1750 gp
Level 4+: full starting wealth as outlined in the DMG on page 143

B) Create the new character at the same level as the old, with the following wealth, based on the level of the new character:

Level 1: 100g
Level 2: 400g
Level 3: 1200g
Level 4+: As in the DMG, but minus the cost of a magic item of your level plus one.

For example, if you retire a 5th level character and choose option B, the replacement level 5 character would only get magic items at levels 5 and 4, instead of 6, 5, and 4 as the DMG outlines.

That's what I meant.

Though, as I typed that, my mind hearkened back to, lo these many threads ago when we went through all of that starting wealth stuff. It all started because we were talking about Jarel-karn, who retired a level 2 character, started another one at level 2, and people thought he had too much wealth. Which he probably did. It occurs to me that we may have actually meant for the whole chart we came up with to apply to Option B as well as A. Or perhaps we just didn't think about option A because no one has ever considered taking it that I know of.

Also, if I was to retrain Murphy into an assassin, would I change his magic rod into a magic sword of same level?

Er, under what rules? If it's as a retire-and-restart, then watch this thread to see what to do with his items. If it's a special-proposal-to-change-class, well, we can talk about it as a one off case. IMO, though, changing class is too much for an overhaul.

 

[renau1g]

B) Create the new character at the same level as the old, with the following wealth, based on the level of the new character:

Level 1: 100g
Level 2: 400g
Level 3: 1200g

So just enough for a lvl 1 magic item if you're lvl 2? Seems low... especially with time gold in play. So if it takes 6 months to level up you get 63 x 6 = 378gp just for time plus 100gp to start = 478 gp, plus the magic items you'd get (I think everyone would get about 1 item per level), so this PC is basically out an item of at least level 2 value.

Er, under what rules? If it's as a retire-and-restart, then watch this thread to see what to do with his items. If it's a special-proposal-to-change-class, well, we can talk about it as a one off case. IMO, though, changing class is too much for an overhaul.

I was thinking the one off case. I saw it was approved for a race change. I think a class change is less of big deal, but I'll wait until November to propose it.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Frankly, I don't see the big deal about a brand new level 2 PC being allowed only a level 1 or 2 magic items.

90% of the characters who ran through level 1 only got one magic items. Whether that item was level +1 to +4 wasn't a big deal. The +1 is the most basic aspect of it and the most valuable. The proof is that when presented with the full monetary value of a level +3 items, just about everyone chooses to buy 3 level items (Weapon, amor and neck slot at +1) rather than purchase a level +3. So if your level 2 PC gets a single +1 item, he is pretty much on par with just about every level 2 PC.

Beside, several characters got nothing but a bit of gold and potions (Hadrak and 7 Rabbit for example). Other ended up with the neck slot items when they would much rather have gotten the weapon/implement. At least, if you start at level two, you get exactly what you want.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

Yes, you get your pick of the litter from the level one magic items. What a fantastic choice.

Seriously though, 780 gold is enough to buy a level 3 item and 100 gp of trappings. I think 620 gold (level 2 item + 100 gold) is a decent amount for a level 2 character, since there's some choice in outfitting, but it probably would have been better to level up "the hard way". Also, you can't buy two +1 items with that, although we could also add that as a separate clause in the retirement rules that you can't introduce a character with more magic items of the weapon/armor/neck variety than gained levels.

At the very least, a level 2 should start with around 450 gold, so a paladin can buy plate, heavy shield, a weapon, and some miscellany like an adventurer's kit in addition to a level 1 item.