Proposal: Retraining for New Material
Ozymandias79
First Post
I am also in favor of this addendum to the proposal IE I am agreeing with Covaithe
fireinthedust
Explorer
QUESTION: I have a character who I like. I picked his race/class as it was the closest thing I had to his concept for 4e. he's level 1 right now, and I'm having a lot of fun, etc.
However: I don't think of him as a wizard. He's a sorcerer, a wild mage, and the way I wrote him up initially backs that up. Emral, see my sig for him.
The history for the character is that he wasn't a great wizard until a magical accident imbued him with elemental might; he was eventually going to be an Elemental Tempest, allowing multiple manifestations at once, yadda yadda. However, he was originally human, and psychologically is still human, just imbued with magical powers (Genasi race and Arcane spells).
So, my question is if I could do an Overhaul (say, after my DM finishes his adventure, so he doesn't have to reconcept) and have him as a Sorcerer rather than a Wizard.
My thinking is that it's the same ultimately as retiring the character, but I get to keep the history and his "story" during this fantastic adventure, and if the game goes on for a while he'll be with his party already.
In fact, as an amendment to the proposal, I would go so far as to propose that one overhaul AFTER the first adventure, between level 1 and 2, is actually less work for Judges than retiring a character and starting over.
First, two characters means two overhauls as approved of above. Second, if the overhaul happens in the (I think it's called Limnal period) between the levels, you've just used the level-up Judge-approval to do the overhaul, which is more efficient than doing it mid-game or stopping and starting over again with a new character after the level-up is approved.
This would only be before level 2, for all the reasons discussed and approved above.
However: I don't think of him as a wizard. He's a sorcerer, a wild mage, and the way I wrote him up initially backs that up. Emral, see my sig for him.
The history for the character is that he wasn't a great wizard until a magical accident imbued him with elemental might; he was eventually going to be an Elemental Tempest, allowing multiple manifestations at once, yadda yadda. However, he was originally human, and psychologically is still human, just imbued with magical powers (Genasi race and Arcane spells).
So, my question is if I could do an Overhaul (say, after my DM finishes his adventure, so he doesn't have to reconcept) and have him as a Sorcerer rather than a Wizard.
My thinking is that it's the same ultimately as retiring the character, but I get to keep the history and his "story" during this fantastic adventure, and if the game goes on for a while he'll be with his party already.
In fact, as an amendment to the proposal, I would go so far as to propose that one overhaul AFTER the first adventure, between level 1 and 2, is actually less work for Judges than retiring a character and starting over.
First, two characters means two overhauls as approved of above. Second, if the overhaul happens in the (I think it's called Limnal period) between the levels, you've just used the level-up Judge-approval to do the overhaul, which is more efficient than doing it mid-game or stopping and starting over again with a new character after the level-up is approved.
This would only be before level 2, for all the reasons discussed and approved above.
In support of allowing ability score mods as part of the overhaul...
Not having played 4E before L4W, I honestly didn't know what I was doing compared to 2E/3E.
I'd much rather change my ability scores during the overhaul than retire and start a new character. Most of my personal investment is in the concept and backstory for Finnian. I'd just like to feel like I'm not constrained by poor character design when I didn't really understand the consequences of my choices.
It would make L4W more *fun* for me to have broader latitude in my one-time overhaul.
Not having played 4E before L4W, I honestly didn't know what I was doing compared to 2E/3E.
I'd much rather change my ability scores during the overhaul than retire and start a new character. Most of my personal investment is in the concept and backstory for Finnian. I'd just like to feel like I'm not constrained by poor character design when I didn't really understand the consequences of my choices.
It would make L4W more *fun* for me to have broader latitude in my one-time overhaul.
covaithe
Explorer
I feel your pain, fireinthedust, but I don't think it's a good idea to open up the one-time overhaul to class changes in general. I suggest one of two courses of action.
Option 1: When PHB2 gets approved, make a proposal that you be allowed to overhaul Emral as a sorcerer, as an isolated, one-off situation that has no bearing on the general rules. I'll vote for it, and if you explain your situation, I imagine other judges will likely be sympathetic.
Option 2: When PHB2 gets approved, the next time you level up, "retire" Emral, and create a new character at that same level, with the same name and backstory, who just happens to be a sorcerer. You might have to sacrifice some wealth (but, to be honest, starting wealth for characters at level 2 or 3 is higher than what you're likely to find adventuring anyway, even giving up a magic item), and maybe a handful of XP, but you can certainly do this without anyone's permission. The charter suggests that the judges will look pretty hard at people who use the retirement feature for things like this, but I think in your case we'd be inclined to give it a pass.
Would one of those answer your concerns?
Option 1: When PHB2 gets approved, make a proposal that you be allowed to overhaul Emral as a sorcerer, as an isolated, one-off situation that has no bearing on the general rules. I'll vote for it, and if you explain your situation, I imagine other judges will likely be sympathetic.
Option 2: When PHB2 gets approved, the next time you level up, "retire" Emral, and create a new character at that same level, with the same name and backstory, who just happens to be a sorcerer. You might have to sacrifice some wealth (but, to be honest, starting wealth for characters at level 2 or 3 is higher than what you're likely to find adventuring anyway, even giving up a magic item), and maybe a handful of XP, but you can certainly do this without anyone's permission. The charter suggests that the judges will look pretty hard at people who use the retirement feature for things like this, but I think in your case we'd be inclined to give it a pass.
Would one of those answer your concerns?
Lord Sessadore
Explorer
Two things: first of all, I'm also in favor of allowing ability score changes with the overhaul. Should we hash out exactly what we mean by that? IE - you can start your point buy from scratch, or move a certain number of points around, or swap a couple scores, etc?
Secondly, to fireinthedust, I agree with covaithe on Emral. I was in favor of allowing class changes in the overhaul when those class changes aligned with the character's original concept, but I also don't want to be someone who has to decide whose proposed class aligns with their concept for borderline cases. That's why we decided to not allow class changes in general, and I'll stand by that. I'm willing to view Emral as an exception - seeing Emral in TURTLEDOME!, he doesn't really act like a 'wizard' per se.
With that in mind, do the options covaithe presented work for you?
Secondly, to fireinthedust, I agree with covaithe on Emral. I was in favor of allowing class changes in the overhaul when those class changes aligned with the character's original concept, but I also don't want to be someone who has to decide whose proposed class aligns with their concept for borderline cases. That's why we decided to not allow class changes in general, and I'll stand by that. I'm willing to view Emral as an exception - seeing Emral in TURTLEDOME!, he doesn't really act like a 'wizard' per se.
With that in mind, do the options covaithe presented work for you?JoeNotCharles
First Post
Another way to look at it is, you absolutely CAN change your mechanics completely when levelling up, if the new mechanics fit your character concept. You just need judges' permission. Which means they need to vote on it. And you get them to vote by submitting a proposal.
Lord Sessadore
Explorer
I suppose, but I'd prefer if it were an exception to the rule to do it that way. Otherwise it's basically the same thing - the judges need to make judgment calls on whose overhauls fit their concept and whose don't. I'd rather not be put in the position where I tell someone they aren't staying true to their concept 
Atanatotatos
First Post
So...I haven't really participated in this, because I don't have a clear idea about the whole discussion, and it's mostly the judges' responsibility, but I thought I'd say just one thing. I have nothing against Emral's overhaul, and obviously if players have more fun with their character, that's good but I'm pretty sure if we make one exception, people will ask for more exceptions in the future.
My thought is to modify the one-time overhaul to include a complete redo of ability scores from scratch. This has the merits of...
- allowing players to "fix" characters and retain history, backstory
- allowing more dynamic change in a slow PbP campaign
- simplifying judge responsibility for checking ability scores to making sure the point buy is correct (one of the simpler math checks in a complete overhaul)
Downsides might be...
- Yet another thing for judges to do
- Broader departure from RAW
- Break in character continuity (story vs. mechanics in PbP)
- Judges have to recheck prerequisites for feats, powers, etc. and modifier bonuses
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