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Proposed Damage / Healing System
- Thread starter KarinsDad
- Start date
I don't know I agree about the same Pandora's Box that you see, since 4e healing is based on exactly what Gary Gygax always said hit points were about -- they're not all just about your physical wounds.
Yea, I go over it in my head and think "Hey, that solves problem X" then "Oh, but it introduces issue Y" and "Hey, they would be cool if..." followed by "oh, but not so cool when..."
At the end of the day, whatever the merits or cons, this does add an extra something where I cant help but feel we just dont need an extra something. Is HP the greatest model for representing damage? No. But it has never really needed to be. Its just an easy abstract system. What you are proposing is another layer on that abstraction, but I just dont see enough value in it.
Sorry, for my table...pass
At the end of the day, whatever the merits or cons, this does add an extra something where I cant help but feel we just dont need an extra something. Is HP the greatest model for representing damage? No. But it has never really needed to be. Its just an easy abstract system. What you are proposing is another layer on that abstraction, but I just dont see enough value in it.
Sorry, for my table...pass
FireLance
Legend
Frankly, I don't see why 5e should only have one system to model hit points and healing. I think the way ahead would be to have two more-or-less balanced approaches to hit points: both a VP/HP system and a healing surge system.
For example, a paladin might have the ability to use cure personal wounds a number of times per day, restoring 25% of his total hit points each time. This is effectively the healing surge system - just renamed and given a magical (divine) justification.
On the other hand, a fighter might use the VP/HP system instead. He gains a vigor pool equal to 25% of his full normal hit points, and damage is normally taken first from this vigor pool before being taken from hit points. The vigor pool replenishes after every short rest, but HP can only be regained through rest or external magic. Once per day, he can use a second wind action to replenish his vigor pool in the middle of a fight.
There are differences between the two approaches - a VP/WP character will probably do better when facing a large number of easier encounters, while a healing surge character would do better against a smaller number of tougher encounters - but I think the specifics can be tweaked so that the two options are generally (though not perfectly) balanced.
Mind you, even though the example above uses Divine healing surges and Martial VP/HP, there is nothing to stop any character from adopting either system (renaming "surges" or "VP" as necessary) if the DM allows it, or even neither if the DM wants to have a tougher campaign with less innate healing/hit point recovery.
For example, a paladin might have the ability to use cure personal wounds a number of times per day, restoring 25% of his total hit points each time. This is effectively the healing surge system - just renamed and given a magical (divine) justification.
On the other hand, a fighter might use the VP/HP system instead. He gains a vigor pool equal to 25% of his full normal hit points, and damage is normally taken first from this vigor pool before being taken from hit points. The vigor pool replenishes after every short rest, but HP can only be regained through rest or external magic. Once per day, he can use a second wind action to replenish his vigor pool in the middle of a fight.
There are differences between the two approaches - a VP/WP character will probably do better when facing a large number of easier encounters, while a healing surge character would do better against a smaller number of tougher encounters - but I think the specifics can be tweaked so that the two options are generally (though not perfectly) balanced.
Mind you, even though the example above uses Divine healing surges and Martial VP/HP, there is nothing to stop any character from adopting either system (renaming "surges" or "VP" as necessary) if the DM allows it, or even neither if the DM wants to have a tougher campaign with less innate healing/hit point recovery.
TheAuldGrump
First Post
I run Spycraft, which uses a similar system of Stamina and Wounds.
Works for me.
The Auld Grump
Works for me.
The Auld Grump
I understand.
With regard to 4E, it's the same amount of "extra something". Instead of healing surges and hit points to keep track of, it's wound points and hit points to keep track of. It keeps 4E hit points (which for all intents and purposes are not damage at all unless a PC dies, merely stun or stamina or whatever), removes healing surges, but adds damage back in as wounds.
My concern is that if WotC goes back to pre-4E hit points where magic / rest is needed to restore them, then some portion of the 4E crowd is disappointed. They could have a healing surge module for those people, but I would think that this module concept is going to break down in some cases. There will be core rule and spells and other game elements that do not take into account healing surges, exactly like when Battleragers were introduced and they didn't at first take into account minions at all.
trancejeremy
Adventurer
I would like to see something simpler - basically once a character runs out of hit points, they start taking damage to their Constitution score. When it hits 0, they're unconscious, and they can go to -Con before really dying.
Hit points could be healed/restoring however (be it cure spells or whatever the DM wants), but Con would come back slowly.
So sort of like wound/vitality points, but streamlined a little, and no bypassing hit/vitality points (which is too much bookkeeping.)
Hit points could be healed/restoring however (be it cure spells or whatever the DM wants), but Con would come back slowly.
So sort of like wound/vitality points, but streamlined a little, and no bypassing hit/vitality points (which is too much bookkeeping.)
Tallifer
Hero
The proposed system in this thread has its good points, but it must address certain important issues:
1. Clerics and other magical healers should not be turned into medical kits.
2. If you want a deadlier and more realistic feel to combat, then clerics et alia must not be able to heal too easily. I play pathfinder now, and my fourth level cleric heals incredible amounts with his channeling. Magical healing should be done with mostly divine ritual magic and magical herbs.
3. Warlords and parties without a cleric have to have a way of not needing a cleric or a clerical henchmen: one of the main points of warlords and healing surges was to get away from the necessity of having a stereotypical party every time.
4. At the same time, you use the phrase "magical healing," which makes me fear a radical move in the other direction: wizardly and sorcerous healing. Perhaps that could be an option, but it does not feel right for most settings and for the sake of class balance.
1. Clerics and other magical healers should not be turned into medical kits.
2. If you want a deadlier and more realistic feel to combat, then clerics et alia must not be able to heal too easily. I play pathfinder now, and my fourth level cleric heals incredible amounts with his channeling. Magical healing should be done with mostly divine ritual magic and magical herbs.
3. Warlords and parties without a cleric have to have a way of not needing a cleric or a clerical henchmen: one of the main points of warlords and healing surges was to get away from the necessity of having a stereotypical party every time.
4. At the same time, you use the phrase "magical healing," which makes me fear a radical move in the other direction: wizardly and sorcerous healing. Perhaps that could be an option, but it does not feel right for most settings and for the sake of class balance.
No CON dependence for HP though the more CON you have the more hardy you are. No additional terms or complicated logical paths. Those that like it more gritty can easily throw in additional effects for what happens when you reach that point.
I suppose an unfortunate side-effect might be taking a penalty to any CON-related saves, but that's not too much of a stretch.
There is one fundamental thing I don't like about this system - very deterministic way of getting wounds. Most significant hits wound, but not very seriously. From the narrative point of view, it's not much different from old good hit points.
I would prefer a system that would lead to more interesting narration, just by loosening the relation between the two types of damage (vitality and wounds or whatever one calls them). The average result may be the same, but there should be more randomness: a majority of successful attacks that deal no wounds (so I may consistently narrate them as last-moment dodges, lucky misses etc.) and some that deal serious wounds (so I may narrate them as dangerous hits).
I would prefer a system that would lead to more interesting narration, just by loosening the relation between the two types of damage (vitality and wounds or whatever one calls them). The average result may be the same, but there should be more randomness: a majority of successful attacks that deal no wounds (so I may consistently narrate them as last-moment dodges, lucky misses etc.) and some that deal serious wounds (so I may narrate them as dangerous hits).
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