psicrystal

[Thanee]

Of course, monsters of all types get feats and such based on their hd, even if they didnt gain any. A 6 hd monster has 3 feats (besides racial ones) but they didnt 'gain' hd to get those, they simply have enough hd to qualify.

Correct, they *have* 3 feats. These feats are then listed in their statblock.

Psicrystals *have* no additional feats based on their HD. Their statblock clearly states so by listing no additional feats for them.

Psicrystals also *gain* no HD, because their HD statistic is a variable based on their master's HD. They simply *have* that amount of HD (which can be anything from 1 to 20+).

But as I said, you can certainly rule that any way you want (as long as you are fair and do it the same for everyone).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

So saying that the chart is correct when there is no text to back it up and it contradicts other rules seems a bit wrong to me.

This is the part I do not get... what rules do you see contradicted?

They simply count as more powerful than they really are, just like familiars. It should be obvious enough, that they are based on the same rules. Just look up the rules for HD and hit points, which are missing from the psicrystal description under the familiar description (or in my post above).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

Correct, they *have* 3 feats. These feats are then listed in their statblock.

But they did not 'gain' these hd, they just have them. By having a certain amount of hd they get a number of feats.

Psicrystals *have* no additional feats based on their HD. Their statblock clearly states so by listing no additional feats for them.

Because their hd vary. The example they give lists only the base psicrystal. Or are you saying that because they arent listed as having all of the benifits of a high level psicrystal that they do not gain these either?

Psicrystals also *gain* no HD, because their HD statistic is a variable based on their master's HD. They simply *have* that amount of HD (which can be anything from 1 to 20+).

But of course, 'gaining' hd isnt a requirement to 'gain' the benefits of having higher hd. Just like the creature who pops into existance with 6 hd has 3 feats a psicrystal with 6 hd would have 3 feats unless it specified somewhere that they do not get them, as it does for their skills.

This is the part I do not get... what rules do you see contradicted?

That creatures with a certain amount of hd have a certain amount of feats as well.



So it sounds like you are saying that a higher hd psicrystal will not only not have feats but will also not have any abilities of a higher level psicrystal. After all, they are not listed in its stat block.

Then again, if they 'had' listed them then people would assume that low level psicrystals would get all of them.

Hmm..

 

[Thanee]

But they did not 'gain' these hd, they just have them. By having a certain amount of hd they get a number of feats.

That's exactly the point. They have the (base) HD and they have the feats for those. Both are listed in the statblock. There is no reason, why this should be any different for psicrystals.

Because their hd vary. The example they give lists only the base psicrystal. Or are you saying that because they arent listed as having all of the benifits of a high level psicrystal that they do not gain these either?

The benefits from high level is listed in the appropriate table, there is also a sentence explaining how to use it. They are added to the 'base psicrystal' (the one in the statblock).

If they had written it in a way, that it works as you think it does, then they had just entered 1 as HD.

Note, that there is also this sentence in the statblock:

The psicrystal described here is that of a 1st-level manifester.

A 1st-level manifester could potentially have more than 1 HD (multiclass), therefore the HD entry is already variable. But ONLY the HD entry is variable, nothing else.

But of course, 'gaining' hd isnt a requirement to 'gain' the benefits of having higher hd.

Actually, yes, it is. Creatures have the feats listed in their statblock, that's it. Only by gaining HD/class levels can they add new feats.

That creatures with a certain amount of hd have a certain amount of feats as well.

There is no such rule.

So it sounds like you are saying that a higher hd psicrystal will not only not have feats but will also not have any abilities of a higher level psicrystal. After all, they are not listed in its stat block.

Please look again at the above note... here's the quote again:

The psicrystal described here is that of a 1st-level manifester.

Here's another one for easy reference:

Use the statistics for a psicrystal, but make the following changes.

...

All psicrystals have special abilities (or impart abilities to their owners) depending on the level of the owner, as shown on the table above. The abilities on the table are cumulative.

Also note, that among the 'following changes' there is no mentioning of adding to abilities, skills or feats.

Anyways, if you still don't see how it works, I suppose, I simply cannot help you. I really tried.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

That's exactly the point. They have the (base) HD and they have the feats for those. Both are listed in the statblock. There is no reason, why this should be any different for psicrystals.

But there is reason to feel that it should be the same for them as they increase in hd. Which would mean that they gain appropriate benefits.

The benefits from high level is listed in the appropriate table, there is also a sentence explaining how to use it. They are added to the 'base psicrystal' (the one in the statblock).

Which means that the statblock is definately not complete.

They gain from the table, they gain from the manifestor increasing in power, skills are pointed out as working differently (otherwise they would gain skill points as well), the only thing missing are what happens with increasing hd for other factors.

Now, I have already gotten a response from their creator about how BAB works (they have BAB equal to the person with the feat) but that was a long time ago and they havent been around on that board to answer questions so far as I can tell. Until then that was up in the air as well.

If they had written it in a way, that it works as you think it does, then they had just entered 1 as HD.

So you are saying that the stat block was written poorly? I agree.

A 1st-level manifester could potentially have more than 1 HD (multiclass), therefore the HD entry is already variable. But ONLY the HD entry is variable, nothing else.

Note that while the manifestor 'could' have more than 1hd through multiclassing the psicrystal would not gain hd unless it is from a manifesting/psionic class (debateable which is true). At which point it would gain the extra hd and no longer be a pure 1st level manifestor, it would also gain other abilities as well.

Note as well that several other parts of the stat block 'are' variable even though they are not listed as such.

Actually, yes, it is. Creatures have the feats listed in their statblock, that's it. Only by gaining HD/class levels can they add new feats.

Which the psicrystal does.

There is no such rule.

Ok, show me an intelligent creature with fewer feats than it should have by hd. Even the psicrystal has his first feat laid out as a 1hd creature.

As far as I can tell creatures all have one feat base and another for every 3 hd that they have.

How many exceptions to this rule are there?

Also note, that among the 'following changes' there is no mentioning of adding to abilities, skills or feats.

Sure, those come by default unless otherwise specified. As it is for skills. (which means that skills 'are' listed btw)

Of course, in your 'following changes' section they also do not list hd at all, which do change.

It lists all of the differences from a normal progression. Most creatures dont gain lots of natural armor as they progress so it needs to be listed. Most creatures gain skill points as they progress so it needs to be listed.

Of course, if they 'dont' list the other things then why should we assume it is different than the norm?

 

[Thanee]

Just a few quick comments:

Note that while the manifestor 'could' have more than 1hd through multiclassing the psicrystal would not gain hd unless it is from a manifesting/psionic class (debateable which is true).

This is definitely wrong. The HD are the full HD of the master, not bound in the least by psionic classes.

At which point it would gain the extra hd and no longer be a pure 1st level manifestor, it would also gain other abilities as well.

You confuse manifester level and HD again.

How many exceptions to this rule are there?

None. There are two, which look like exceptions (familiar and psicrystal), but they are not really, if you understand how the HD thing works for them. Both are effectively 1 HD creatures (or ½, or ¼), that technically have a higher value for their HD, when it comes to effects depending on HD, but none of the benefits, not even hit points. There whole advancement is based on their master's abilities (BAB, base saves, skill ranks, etc) and level (special abilities).

Of course, in your 'following changes' section they also do not list hd at all, which do change.

Nope, where do they change? They are exactly as listed in the statblock at all times (equal to master's HD). No change to that. Never.

Man, it's really not that difficult!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

This is definitely wrong. The HD are the full HD of the master, not bound in the least by psionic classes.

Unless of course we go by the raw. (you might want to read it again as you missed it)

You confuse manifester level and HD again.

No, I did not. You are simply not understanding.

None. There are two, which look like exceptions (familiar and psicrystal), but they are not really, if you understand how the HD thing works for them. Both are effectively 1 HD creatures (or ½, or ¼), that technically have a higher value for their HD, when it comes to effects depending on HD, but none of the benefits, not even hit points. There whole advancement is based on their master's abilities (BAB, base saves, skill ranks, etc) and level (special abilities).

Once again, unless you go by the raw.

There are exceptions that are laid out, but you are assuming extra limitations that are not there.

They have a total hd score but they do not have a die value attached, merely a total. But only a total is needed to get the benefits.

Their hp is done specially, this exception is listed.

I could keep going, but the point is that all of the exceptions are listed, so the things that are 'not' listed must use the normal rules.

Nope, where do they change? They are exactly as listed in the statblock at all times (equal to master's HD). No change to that. Never.

So, when the psicrystals master goes up a level in a psionic class and the psicrystal goes from X hd to X+1 hd it has not changed?

Interesting. To me this sounds like a change.

But, it doesnt even matter if it is a change or not, because the rules dont care about that.

It is based on how many hd that you have. If you have 6 hd then you have 3 feats, unless otherwise specified.

There is no exception listed for the feats, unlike a number of other things.