Psion power balance questions

[Plane Sailing]

Also, I forgot to mention that druids of 9th+ level get the amazing super-buff, Animal Growth, which can give an amazing boost to a bunch of summoned allies.

 

[Zimbel]

OK. The number of targets is an advantage. I don't think it's a huge advantage, however, because in my experience, you very rarely fight tons of weak creatures... and when you do, there are lots and lots of things that work on them.

I don't however, think that evasion not being a problem is really an advantage that horrid wilting has over energy missile. If evasion is likely to be a problem, a psion can simply use the cold version and make it a fort save. However, if massive fort save is more likely to be a problem (as it often is), the psion can also do reflex. I would think that the fort save would be a problem for horrid wilting at least as often as it is an advantage. Psions get to choose their advantage.

I'd also agree that horrid wilting evades immunities which is good--but as I pointed out in the last post, most immunities are really only resist 10, so in a lot of cases, energy missile will blow through the resists and still do more damage. On the whole, however, this is probably only a problem for wilders. Psions, like wizards have enough knowledge skills that they should be able to figure out immunities even where they aren't obvious.

So, I'd say an augmented th level equivalent energy missile stacks up very well to horrid wilting even if we assume roughly the same save DC (using Piratecat (and Living Arcanis's) DC fix for the +1DC/pp augmentation powers). With the written DC, I'd say energy missile blows horrid wilting away.

I agree on all points except the first (which I submit varies wildly by DM - in the campaign in question we did an encounter with dozens of opponents at LV 1). I think the conclusion largely holds when there aren't a large number of creatures, although Horrid Wilting has advantages in specific cases (First example: a creature is immune, or has Protection from, all 4 relevant elements. Second example: the creatures are too far spread apart to affect multiple with energy missile).

 

[Zimbel]

Cr 10

Core: i.e. MMI
Yup. And I left off the St. Dev. numbers too. Sorry 'bout that.
That would also be helpful.....although at low CR (up to CR 4), the differences would be small.

CR 10 results (using SRD, from www.d20srd.org):
"Battler only" excludes: Coutal, Formian Mymarch, Guardian Naga, Rakshasa, due to their samll damage output (less than 50-% of mean).
AC for damage/round is 22.
Damage/round is assuming full attacks.
Damage/round is assuming crits are possible.
All
Mean: HP 130.0 AC 21.6 Average damage: 37.2
St dev: HP 49.6 AC 3.8 damage: 26.2

Battler only
Mean: HP 144.5 AC 22 Average damage: 44.6
St dev: HP 44.7 AC 4.3 damage: 24.6

Note that even after this filter, the standard devaition on damage is huge, and the standard deviation on HP is also large.

For comparison:
9th level Astral construct (assuming that a special ability is chosen that dose not affect these stats):
HP 144 AC 33 Averade damage: 45.9
St dev from all: HP 0.28 AC 2.99 Damage: 0.33
St Dev from battler only: HP 0.01 AC 2.59 Damage: 0.05

My conclusion is that for the given CR, the 9th level astral construct's AC is almost certaintely too high. With a sample size of 16 (or 11 in the battler only), the highest AC is 28 (26 for battler only).

I also note that considering the size of the stadard deviations relative to their means, "averge damage" looks nothing like a normal distribution, and HP is unlikely to look much like a normal distribution. AC, on the other hand, looks relatively normal.

[note that some numbers above have changed due to my formally defining "battler".]

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

My conclusion is that for the given CR, the 9th level astral construct's AC is almost certaintely too high. With a sample size of 16 (or 11 in the battler only), the highest AC is 28 (26 for battler only).

Note that the deflection chain of special abilities actually yields a huge increase in AC for the astral contructs. When stacked atop the already high AC of an astral construct, that is even more advantageous.

 

[Zimbel]

Cr 9

CR 9 results (Same method as CR 10)
"Battler only" excludes: Avoral, Juvenlie Copper Dragon, Zelekhut, Spirit Naga, Night Hag due to their small damage output (less than 50-% of mean).
AC for damage/round is 22.
All
Mean: HP 128.8 AC 21.7 Average damage: 31.2
St dev: HP 41.5 AC 3.1 damage: 19.0

Battler only
Mean: HP 138.8 AC 21.6 Average damage: 35.7
St dev: HP 37.5 AC 2.9 damage: 17.8


For comparison:
8th level Astral construct (assuming that a special ability is chosen that does not affect these stats):
HP 118 AC 29 Average damage: 38.85
St dev from all: HP 0.26 (-) AC 2.37 Damage: 0.29
St Dev from battler only: HP 0.56 (-) AC 2.37 Damage: 0.30

My conclusion is that for the given CR, the 8th level astral construct's AC is almost certaintely too high. With a sample size of 29 (or 24 in the battler only), the highest AC is 26 (26 for battler only). However, unlike the CR 10 example, there is a significant disadvantage in HP. There is also a significaqnt advantage in damage output.

 

[Zimbel]

Cr 8

CR 8 results (Same method as CR 10)
"Battler only" excludes: Bodak, Destrachan, Gorgon, Mohrg, Dark Naga, Ogre Mage, Greater Shadow, Gynosphinx due to their small damage output (less than 50% of mean).
AC for damage/round is 20.
All
Mean: HP 94.8 AC 19.6 Average damage: 24.1
St dev: HP 34.4 AC 3.2 damage: 17.0

Battler only
Mean: HP 105.5 AC 20.0 Average damage: 30.2
St dev: HP 32.0 AC 3.2 damage: 15.1


For comparison:
7th level Astral construct (assuming that a special ability is chosen that does not affect these stats):
HP 101 AC 27 Average damage: 32.92
St dev from all: HP 0.18 AC 2.28 Damage: 0.52
St Dev from battler only: HP 0.14 (-) AC 2.17 Damage: 0.18

My conclusion is that for the given CR, the 7th level astral construct's AC is almost certaintely too high. With a sample size of 32 (or 24 in the battler only), the highest AC is 25 (25 for battler only).

 

[Nail]

My conclusion is that for the given CR, the 9th level astral construct's AC is almost certaintely too high.

That's been our experience, especially with the AC-boosters available to the A-C.

SM creatures get Power Attacked, due to their low AC. ...so they'd have to have lots of hp to compensate....and they don't.

 

[Zimbel]

Cr 7, 5

CR 7 results (Same method as CR 10)
"Battler only" excludes: Chaos Beast, Young Copper Dragon, Succubus, Drider, Medusa, Water Naga, Nymph, Black Pudding, Phasm, Spectre due to their small damage output (less than 50% of mean).
AC for damage/round is 18.
All
Mean: HP 87.9 AC 17.8 Average damage: 22.9
St dev: HP 34.4 AC 3.5 damage: 14.8

Battler only
Mean: HP 96.9 AC 18.5 Average damage: 28.5
St dev: HP 30.6 AC 2.7 damage: 12.2


For comparison:
6th level Astral construct (assuming that a special ability is chosen that does not affect these stats):
HP 85 AC 25 Average damage: 30.92
St dev from all: HP 0.08 (-) AC 2.06 Damage: 0.54
St Dev from battler only: HP 0.39 (-) AC 2.38 Damage: 0.54

My conclusion is that for the given CR, the 6th level astral construct's AC is almost certaintely too high. With a sample size of 42 (or 32 in the battler only), the highest AC is 22 (22 for battler only). Note, however, that its HP are significantly low, at least after the "battler" filter.



CR 5 results (Same method as CR 10)
"Battler only" excludes: Adult Arrowhawk, Basilisk, Cloaker, Very Young Copper Dragon, Gibbering Mouther, Ocre Jelly, Phase Spider, Ravid, SWhadow Mastiff, Wraith due to their small damage output (less than 50% of mean).
AC for damage/round is 17.
All
Mean: HP 57.8 AC 17.5 Average damage: 14.2
St dev: HP 19.4 AC 3.6 damage: 7.9

Battler only
Mean: HP 62.7 AC 17.7 Average damage: 17.1
St dev: HP 18.1 AC 2.9 damage: 6.6


For comparison:
5th level Astral construct (assuming that a special ability is chosen that does not affect these stats):
HP 68 AC 23 Average damage: 24.1
St dev from all: HP 0.52 AC 1.52 Damage: 1.24
St Dev from battler only: HP 0.29 AC 1.81 Damage: 1.05

My conclusion is that for the given CR, the 5th level astral construct is at the high end of the battlers, but it is within 2 standard deviations from the mean. With a sample size of 43 (or 33 in the battler only), the highest AC is 25 (24 for battler only).

Note that I am unlikely to finish this data gathering until next week.

 

[Zimbel]

Astral Construct desired CRs

That's been our experience, especially with the AC-boosters available to the A-C.

SM creatures get Power Attacked, due to their low AC. ...so they'd have to have lots of hp to compensate....and they don't.

Once I finish this (frankly, most of the work is data entry of the creatures into a spreadsheet), I think I'd like to use that data to re-estimate more accurate CRs for these creatures.
The other side of this question, of course, is "What CR should a level X power summon?" Here's my first draft; essentially it's roughly 1/4 of the power of the caster's likely level:
LV CR
1 1/4
2 1
3 3
4 5
5 7
6 9
7 11
8 13
9 15
The main problem is that it assumes a combat of roughly 6 rounds, but at higher levels it may be possible to summon creatures for minutes beforehand, resulting in an small militia that's far more powerful than intended. The second problem is that it's quite possible for Wilders, in particular, to have an effective caster level significantly higher than their actual level. Adjusting for the later issue, we get:
LV CR
1 1/4
2 1/2
3 2
4 3
5 4
6 6
7 7
8 8
9 10

Which looks pretty close to (although a bit lower than) the printed CRs for these constructs.

 

[helium3]

First: Thanks for taking on the problem, E-B. I appreciate it.

He makes the sphere only big enough for himself. No room to teleport into.

Right. Obfuscation is really the best way to contain the psion.

T That's more or less what I'm left with. The problem is he's still able to be amazingly effective, so the bad guys can't simply ignore him.

Are you making him roll his psi-craft check every time he tries to bypass the barrier? The DC is a 20. Also, are you talking about a kineticist capable of casting 8th level powers? I find it hard to believe that monsters that are an appropriate challenge for such a high level caster are unable to deal with the spell, considering that it only takes a targeted dispel magic to get rid of the thing. And yeah, why wouldn't the monsters be smart enough at that level to break off, figure out how to deal with the sphere and then come back with the appropriate counter measure?