D&D (2024) Psionics: What Do You Want?

[Horwath]

1. It is my understanding that spell points are notoriously hard to balance as you can spam higher spells at the cost of lower ones, essentially getting the best of traditional progression and pact magic. Plus it wrecks havoc with multiclassing. I would have wanted points too for nostalgia sake, but I get why it's slots.

There is a limit on only one 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level slot per Long rest,
sure you can spam 5th level spells more.
there is no problem with multiclass rules and spell points

2. This I think is too create some limits on psi magic as fully ignoring components would limit counterplay (counter spell, silence, paralysis, etc.) I think they need one component to keep it from being broken and this was the most obvious.

that could be the main thing for psionics, it's not classic magic so it cannot be counterspelled.

3. I wouldn't mind more cantrips, but argument cuts a little too close to sorcerer territory

maybe, maybe not.
3 cantrips is too little and after 6, no one cares,
my 4th level sorcerer now has 10 cantrips and I use 4, maybe 5 of them regularly.

4. Three saves at level 1 is too much, and I really think they want the Int based caster. The psi-knight and aberrant sorcerer can be the Wis and Cha caster psionics.

not if it's counted in power level of class.
and it's bonus "weak" save. Int or Cha.
no on takes that with Resilient. it's basically a "quarter feat" worth of power.

5. Four is good for now, but I want more in future books. It took artificer forever to get a fifth and sixth. Let's hope the wait is shorter.

I believe that every class with get at least one new subclass in the book, so it would be fair that psion also has 5 of them.

 

[Steampunkette]

I mean 35+ effects.

9-10 effects at 3-4 tiered power ranks.
Or

5-6 effects at 3-4 tiered power ranks and 10-12 assorted psionic effects.

100+ effects is being greedy and just asked for imbalance.

I think we're talking across each other, here. This is what I'm referring to:

One power. Six different effect options.

1) Deal Psychic Damage
2) Telepathic Communication
3) Read Surface Thoughts
4) Put someone to Sleep by psychic attack
5) Steal Memory
6) Drive someone Batty with psychic attack.

Six functions, one power. And then the basic functions of "Add Damage" or "Increase Range" or "Make it hit two targets". For a total of nine variable functions off one power.

Granted, I only wrote up 12 powers in the entire book. Each has variable functions like these and, also, there's not really any "Tiering" to the powers except the augment costs...

 

[Reynard]

I think we're talking across each other, here. This is what I'm referring to:

View attachment 406881

One power. Six different effect options.

1) Deal Psychic Damage
2) Telepathic Communication
3) Read Surface Thoughts
4) Put someone to Sleep by psychic attack
5) Steal Memory
6) Drive someone Batty with psychic attack.

Six functions, one power. And then the basic functions of "Add Damage" or "Increase Range" or "Make it hit two targets". For a total of nine variable functions off one power.

Granted, I only wrote up 12 powers in the entire book. Each has variable functions like these and, also, there's not really any "Tiering" to the powers except the augment costs...

From a balance perspective, versatility should come at a cost.

 

[Steampunkette]

From a balance perspective, versatility should come at a cost.

It does.

1) The powers are strictly not as strong as spells. Baseline, they're about as powerful as cantrips, though they scale in a different way. Even with augments they deal less damage than a spell with an equal investiture of psi dice to spell levels.

2) Limited selection paths. To learn a power you need prerequisite disciplines. To learn a power with Telekinetic and Telepathic disciplines you must possess a power with either of the two disciplines. To learn a power with Empathic, Kinesthetic, and Telepathic disciplines you must possess a power (or powers) of at least two of the three listed disciplines.

3) Overall limited selection. While every power has multiple options for functions, you only learn 6 over the course of leveling (7 if you take the Chirurgeon or Thymokineticist archetype) and you start with 1 (or two if you're a member of those archetypes).

If I can do that, surely WotC can do it even better.

 

[Flights of Fancy]

My fundamental problem with psions is they come off too "superhero" for me. But that is more my issue. It is the same reason I am not a big fan of high-level play.

However, if I had to include psions I would basically want "force-users". One thing I love about Revised Star Wars was using force powers cost hit points (well, "vitality"). The idea was a balance between using your powers and spending your defense or plot armor (vitality). You had to judge if the benfit was worth the risk. Having psionics actually drain you (hit points) would make it distinct from magic--which is a separate resource. I know that wouldn't be popular, however, but it is what I would like.

Another issue is D&D has long has psion powers as spells. In 1E you had spells for telekinesis, levitate, clairvoyance, etc. Yes, they made them as psionics as well, but they were also spells. Since they "exist as spells" the temptation is just to use the spells for psionic powers.

This was part of the problem with Invocations as well. Many invocations just allowed to you cast a spell once per rest or even at will. Of course you had Invocations that allowed you to levitate and do other psionic-like powers--so the "warlock-psion" made sense to some.

I agree with many others "powers" should be few but versatile. For example, telekinetic, telepath, bodymorph, etc. with each power allowing for certain chosen effects. Telekinetic might be moving objects, moving yourself, force-"punching", force-"shield", etc. You might only get 1 "power" per tier but learn 4-6 effects for each by the end.

Using powers might require a check, or expenditure of points or whatever, I don't know.

 

[Minigiant]

I think we're talking across each other, here. This is what I'm referring to:

View attachment 406881

One power. Six different effect options.

1) Deal Psychic Damage
2) Telepathic Communication
3) Read Surface Thoughts
4) Put someone to Sleep by psychic attack
5) Steal Memory
6) Drive someone Batty with psychic attack.

Six functions, one power. And then the basic functions of "Add Damage" or "Increase Range" or "Make it hit two targets". For a total of nine variable functions off one power.

Granted, I only wrote up 12 powers in the entire book. Each has variable functions like these and, also, there's not really any "Tiering" to the powers except the augment costs...

We are thinking the same
T
9-10 powers with 3-4 effects each.

Or

5-6 powers at 3-4 effects each and 10-12 powers with 1-2 effects each.

 

[Remathilis]

There is a limit on only one 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level slot per Long rest,
sure you can spam 5th level spells more.
there is no problem with multiclass rules and spell points

Still the ability to flex between traditional caster and pact magic at will is powerful. It would need massive trade offs to be balanced.

that could be the main thing for psionics, it's not classic magic so it cannot be counterspelled.

That's op. Psionics would be unstoppable. I'd rather NOT return to the era when psionics was banned in sight.

maybe, maybe not.
3 cantrips is too little and after 6, no one cares,
my 4th level sorcerer now has 10 cantrips and I use 4, maybe 5 of them regularly.

Augments sounds like meta magic and that's the sorcerer's thing.

not if it's counted in power level of class.
and it's bonus "weak" save. Int or Cha.
no on takes that with Resilient. it's basically a "quarter feat" worth of power.

Again, a great level 1 dip. Keep them at two saves at level 1 and let them pick up the third around level 5-10.

I believe that every class with get at least one new subclass in the book, so it would be fair that psion also has 5 of them.

Psion is getting four new ones already.

 

[Steampunkette]

We are thinking the same
T
9-10 powers with 3-4 effects each.

Or

5-6 powers at 3-4 effects each and 10-12 powers with 1-2 effects each.

Then, yeah. I disagree that it would be too complex for people to learn or cause significant pause for people looking at the 35-40 new powers.

Or cause the playerbase to undergo a great flinging up of their hands "I don't want to learn all this!" when there's 300+ spells in the PHB and another 60ish in every release that they eagerly buy.

 

[Minigiant]

Then, yeah. I disagree that it would be too complex for people to learn or cause significant pause for people looking at the 35-40 new powers.

Or cause the playerbase to undergo a great flinging up of their hands "I don't want to learn all this!" when there's 300+ spells in the PHB and another 60ish in every release that they eagerly buy.

That literally happens.

Some people don't convert because they don't want to learn the new spells.

Most of 5e fans started with 5e. So they took the 350+ effect plunge and some say no more.

Some don't even both to learn ANYTHING not on their character sheet.

Big powers lists is a hard spell.

 

[TwoSix]

My fundamental problem with psions is they come off too "superhero" for me. But that is more my issue. It is the same reason I am not a big fan of high-level play.

But D&D, particularly 5e, is a game about fantasy superheroes.