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Purchasing Items, Base Value, etc.

GlassEye

Community Supporter
This thread is for discussing how we plan to handle the purchase of items now that several characters have reached the level where items they want are over the base value we've set on Venza.

Edit: Previous discussion on this topic began HERE.
 
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GlassEye

Community Supporter
Proposal:
Upgrade Venza to a Metropolis with a base value of 16,000 gp.​

This will temporarily help out those with characters that want items over 8,000 gp and give us time to discuss the topic of base values and item purchases further.
 

perrinmiller

Villager
I think we should discuss the longer term view. Cythera and Frost have just reached 7th level and are already knocking on the door to 8th.

In a year's time we will be discussing them again when they are at 15th-16th level since we have nothing else to spend our DMC on. :p

What are we going to do about high level characters in the long run? Is 16,000gp enough?

On a tangent, it will not be that far off that we need to discuss what to do about characters reaching 20th level.
 

Maidhc O Casain

Na Bith Mo Riocht Tá!
I don't see anything inherently unbalancing with upgrading to Metropolis size - there's a built in limitation due to the wealth by level mechanic. However, I'm often guilty of missing implications of such things.
 

GlassEye

Community Supporter
I think we should discuss the longer term view...

...What are we going to do about high level characters in the long run? Is 16,000gp enough?

On a tangent, it will not be that far off that we need to discuss what to do about characters reaching 20th level.
I agree that we need to discuss the long view. The proposal of increasing Venza's city size is just a stop-gap measure; it won't last us very long at all.

No, 16,000 isn't enough. But it is the largest base value in the rules and I don't think we should change that. Our solution will hopefully come from somewhere else. Several options were presented in that previous discussion and then, of course, we could just rely on found items and commissioning and adding abilities which will take time but significantly less than if the item were commissioned from scratch.

But, to start with, I'm going to ask for a vote...
Venza as Metropolis: YES.
 

Satin Knights

Villager
I don't like the hard cut off line of 75%. I would prefer a more graduated scale.

70% chance at ..9,000, 35% chance at 16,000
65% chance at 10,000, 30% chance at 17,000
60% chance at 11,000, 25% chance at 18,000
55% chance at 12,000, 20% chance at 19,000
50% chance at 13,000, 15% chance at 20,000
45% chance at 14,000, 10% chance at 21,000
40% chance at 15,000, ..5% chance at 22,000

This allows a few higher item possibilities, but doesn't get the market flooded with all the stuff just below the cut off line. A +4 belt should be more rare than a +1 sword. Extended the other way, there would be a 95% chance of finding something under 4,000 gp. That fits with the metropolis definition of nearly all minor magic is available.
 

sunshadow21

Villager
I would say bump it up to metropolis, and get the 16,000 limit. This will also make it easier for large cities to be created without overshadowing Venza. Anything above that, start reducing the percentage a certain amount/1000 over, until you get down to 5 percent. That way, you still have a chance of finding the things higher level character needs, but you're getting into the ultra rare "backroom" stuff that only the most exalted of customers get access to.
 

Maidhc O Casain

Na Bith Mo Riocht Tá!
I vote YES for the immediate bump to Metropolis size.

For further discussion, I agree with ss21 - I'd say reduce the chance of finding an item by 5%/1000 GP for anything over the Metropolis limit of 16000. I'd also say allow commissioning of items of any worth.
 

perrinmiller

Villager
I vote YES for the immediate bump to Metropolis size.

For further discussion, I agree with ss21 - I'd say reduce the chance of finding an item by 5%/1000 GP for anything over the Metropolis limit of 16000. I'd also say allow commissioning of items of any worth.
This sort of combines SK's idea, just starting the tapering off from 17000 instead 9000. I think this handles the high level characters well enough. You get that high, you might as well be commissioning stuff anyway. :p

I vote YEA for bump to metro, and I vote YEA for Mowgli & SS21's modification of SK's idea.
 

IronWolf

blank
I am fine with bumping to metropolis level. I like SK's ideas, just put it into effect at 16,000 instead of 9,000.

So I vote YES.
 

Satin Knights

Villager
Alright. Like Congress giving themselves a pay raise. No one expected this to be turned down.
YES. That makes four. I will go start editing the Pearl's page.

Edit: I have bumped Venza to 16,000 and added Tritower and Martna. I could not get a real feel as to the size of the other cities we have. The diminishing chances are in a collapsible spoiler.
 
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perrinmiller

Villager
Okay, I reopened this discussion with Mowgli's post quoted:
Actually, SK pointed out a flaw - the item I picked up for him is well over the current limits for the Pearl. However, with the number of characters we now have in the 8+ range it's likely time to start a discussion on raising the limits there. One of his comments also sparked a thought about DMC use - the ability to "find" items in the Pearl and/or "put a rush" on the manufacture of wanted items to get past the mandatory waiting time for commissions. I'll likely bundle both of those into the same discussion.
I think we did discuss using DMC for purchases in Arcane Row, but I don't recall ever deciding anything. 1 DMC equals 30 days TBX/TBG. What about also equaling 30 day RL for commissioning?

Venza was already upgraded to Metropolis, so I don't think we are looking at changing this. We discussed it last time with anticipation of having 15-16th level characters.
 

Systole

Community Supporter
My first thought is that I like the idea. So ... a +5 weapon would be 50,000 gp (plus a few hundred base cost). Crafting would take 150 days. Realistically, we're looking at +3 and +4 weapons and armor being the bulk of the current expected purchases.

On a first pass, I'd say that 1 DMC allows you to 'find' an item of up to 20000gp with no roll needed and no crafting time required -- this gets you a +3 weapon or +4 armor. 2 DMC is up to 40000, which is a +4 weapon or +5/+6 armor. 3 DMC is 60000, which is +5 weapon or +7 armor. A +10 weapon would be 10 DMC - I think this is more or less reasonable.

We desperately need a DMC sink, and I think DMC-crafting is a good idea. However, it means we have to keep a special eye on the loot we give out, to make sure we're giving enough. Because in the extreme scenario where everything is awarded in cash, that would mean the non-GM players have essentially nothing past 8-10th level equipment while the GM players are perfectly kitted out. To avoid this, we should definitely have a guideline that says 'At the end of an adventure, roughly half (or two thirds or whatever) of the award should be cash and half should be usable loot that the PCs would want.' (And yes, I know I'm currently a prime offender of paying players in cash and not goodies.)
 

GlassEye

Community Supporter
I agree we don't want to make a tier above the value for metropolis. The DMC idea sounds great, though.
 

Satin Knights

Villager
So, Systole's suggestion would put it at 1 DMC = 60 days or 20,000 gp value. Yeah, that progression seems reasonable. It would put the triggering item of Breninyr's amulet at 3 DMC and a few extra days because it was 64,000 gp.

YES.
 

perrinmiller

Villager
Okay, this feels like congress voting themselves a pay raise. ;)

While Systole points it out in more detail, it really just boils down to 1 DMC = 60 days of wait for commissioning. That is double of what I proposed at sticking with the 1 DMC = 30 days model we have for other things.

Because of the misgivings about DM players getting better gear, maybe it should be 1 DMC = 30 days to raise the cost and to cut down on the amount of high level gear. I am worried that 1 DMC = 60 days is too generous. Also, we should just tie it to commissioning time not GP, so a player can combine commissioning and use DMC to reduce the time and not need to buy off all the commissioning time if they do not need to.

While I feel for non-DM players with high-level characters that want good gear... Nope, sorry that is not really true. There are not many of them and this policy would encourage long-term players to give something back to LPF to earn the DMC to help them.

I don't think I can support a blanket policy to make DMs provide usable treasure at the end of an adventure. It is a good recommendation for adventures that can support it, but we cannot make it a requirement. I like how GE did it at the end of his dwarven stronghold adventure, letting players put in a requests from the hoard. But that only works when the hoard exists at the end of the adventure. But at higher-levels, when you can use TBG, that hoard will likely be there.
 

Systole

Community Supporter
I don't think we need a hard-and-fast rule, but I think we should remind and encourage GMs to include appropriate loot. I say this because left to my own devices, I tend to forget.

And while we are voting ourselves a pay raise, the thing is that DMCs are a type of currency, and in order to encourage people to keep acquiring currency, the currency has to be able to be exchanged for nice stuff. This means that the people who don't have currency will have stuff that is not quite as nice, QED. The question is, what is nice enough to be worthwhile without being so nice that it's gamebreaking and irritating to the people who don't have it? I think the extra sleeper characters are a perfect example, because people who don't have the time to GM don't have the time to run 3 characters.

The thing that I worry about is that we're talking about a linear investment of DMC, but cost-per-bonus increases exponentially. It makes the math harder, because what's fair at one end is not quite as fair at the other end. I'm honestly on the fence about what and how we should implement, and I think I'm going to sleep on it for a few days. There isn't a rush to git-r-done, is there?
 

perrinmiller

Villager
Systole said:
The thing that I worry about is that we're talking about a linear investment of DMC, but cost-per-bonus increases exponentially. It makes the math harder, because what's fair at one end is not quite as fair at the other end. I'm honestly on the fence about what and how we should implement, and I think I'm going to sleep on it for a few days. There isn't a rush to git-r-done, is there?
No real rush accept to give final approval on Mowgli's character's level-up.

I don't think we need to worry about the exponential math. The fact that it non-linearly increases costs is part of the game's leveling and worth of magic items. XP required for leveling is non-linear as well. This is why I am not even mentioning gp values, because it doesn't really have anything to do with it. I don't think anyone is looking to change crafting, and that mechanic to make 1000gp= waiting 3 days RL is currently be used regardless of level. I don't see any proposal changing it.

Allowing DMC to = time RL for reducing the wait is not much different than applying DMC to add TBX/TBG to characters.

So if 30days TBX/TBG is roughly worth saving 30 days waiting on crafting, that makes things real simple. 1 DMC = 30 days. It means that 1 day in the DM seat equals 1 day of waiting for an item to be crafted. Everything is nice and neat with 1:1 ratios. It all works out simple in my mind.
 

Maidhc O Casain

Na Bith Mo Riocht Tá!
I agree with PM on the math - it should get more expensive (whether you're talking about time spent, DMC spent, or gold spent) to get better items. And if we're looking for a DMC sink, making the higher bonus items cost more DMC to cut waiting time helps that along.

I do think we should use 1 DMC for 60 days waiting, though. That makes it valuable enough that those who are on the fence about GMing can see almost immediate benefits, but it's still fairly pricey once you get characters to those upper levels where they're wanting the really good stuff fast.

Of course, I'm biased right now - I'm the one wanting that really good stuff :D and waiting to get a character approved . . . (No real hurry on that, as Bren won't see action until we wrap Forbidden Isle and get SK's next adventure up and running).
 

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