Purple Dragon Knight Retooled as Banneret in D&D's Heroes of Faerun Book

The class received poor marks during playtesting.
purple dragon knight.jpg


The much-maligned Purple Dragon Knight Fighter subclass is being retooled towards its original support origins in the upcoming Heroes of Faerun book. Coming out of GenCon, an image of a premade character sheet of a Banneret is making its way around the Internet. The classic support-based Fighter subclass appears to have replaced the Purple Dragon Knight subclass, which received a ton of criticism for not resembling the Purple Dragon Knight's traditional lore.

The Banneret's abilities includes a Level 3 "Knightly Envoy" ability that allows it to cast Comprehend Language as a ritual and gain proficiency in either Intimidation, Insight, Performance, or Persuasion (this appears unchanged from the Purple Dragon Knight UA), plus a Group Recovery ability that allows those within 30 feet of the Banneret to regain 1d4 Hit Points plus the Banneret's Fighter Level when the Banneret uses its Second Wind ability. Scrapped is the Purple Dragon companion that the UA version of the subclass had, which grew in power as the Purple Dragon Knight leveled up.

The Banneret was the generic name for the Purple Dragon Knight in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. The Banneret/Purple Dragon Knight was originally more of a support class that could provide the benefits of its abilities to its allies instead of or in addition to benefitting from them directly. For instance, a Banneret's Action Surge could be used to allow a nearby ally to make an attack, and Indomitable could allow an ally to reroll a failed saving throw in addition to the Banneret.

 

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Christian Hoffer

Christian Hoffer

And yet PDK are also idealistic knights, in the vein of Camelot, aren't they? Every time Cormyr has been ever described to me it was as "King Arthur-style place". Do you really don't think that kind of people would not benefit from having a mount who is a mediator? It feels like a match made in heaven for the purpose, very "speak softly and carry a big stick". It seems to me you are selectively cherry-picking parts of lore that show Cormyr in worse light to support your argument, and ignore the positive parts.

And I did brign the "dragosn are inherently evil" because, asi I expected, all your arguments on the side of Dragons boil down to the very same thing as that argument - natu8re. You make assumptions that what is said about Dragon nature is inherently defining and set in stone, and cannot be overcame with nurture. Which I already pointed out is a kind of attitude towards lore I am glad to see gone, as seen with the Drow example above.

And yet PDK are also idealistic knights, in the vein of Camelot, aren't they? Every time Cormyr has been ever described to me it was as "King Arthur-style place". Do you really don't think that kind of people would not benefit from having a mount who is a mediator? It feels like a match made in heaven for the purpose, very "speak softly and carry a big stick". It seems to me you are selectively cherry-picking parts of lore that show Cormyr in worse light to support your argument, and ignore the positive parts.

And I did brign the "dragosn are inherently evil" because, asi I expected, all your arguments on the side of Dragons boil down to the very same thing as that argument - natu8re. You make assumptions that what is said about Dragon nature is inherently defining and set in stone, and cannot be overcame with nurture. Which I already pointed out is a kind of attitude towards lore I am glad to see gone, as seen with the Drow example above.
Your making the SAME assumption that nature could over power nurture. In a world where good and evil are tangible there's just as much a case nurture is not overpowering nature.

Especially when natural selection isnt the origin of species. Nurture does not have a stronger position here.
 
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Also, Aligment is bad and defining what character will or not do by it is also bad. It leads to stereotypical characters with depth of a puddle. If this is basis of your definition of Amethyst Dragon I am glad they are throwing it away.
Incorrect. I don't think this is a good understanding of alignment. I use it still to great effect.
 

It will be nonsense official lore. New lore ignorant if the old lore.

All table campaigns are different. Clearly I'm talking about the publishers. I dont care if someone changes it for their campaign. When lore changes DMs have to then stop the players from bringing lore changes that dont make sense into the game.

PDK riding purple dragons dont even make sense with current lore models.

If players want to.play orcs in my game they have to be half orcs. Orcs are not a player race in any of my games except the elder scrolls I'm running with a different system.
I strictly limit the races that can be played even in 5e.

I am in no way a fan of orcs being playable. Inherently evil orcs are a thing thanks to gruumsh. Species can have different intelligence levels. I have no problem limiting orc intelligence.

I see no problem with inherently aligned races. I enforce it still.

Monks were always martial artists and never represented the cloistered european monks. Even in AD&D depictions.

Im not ok with official lore being arbitrary or reactionary.
Even among the publishers and writers no one has full grasp of the lore. I assure you, all rpgs are full of books written by writers who added something with no idea another writer is doing something contradictory. Mystara in particular is a whole setting built on it. I once attended a panel lead by Liz Danford, co-writer of Northen Reaches Gazeteer, and someone asked her how it was working with Bruce Heard (who wrote Principalities of Glantri Gazeteer) and said she doesn't know because each person working on GAZ series was writing their own thing, and they would only interact after work, when they went drinking and work topics were strictly forbidden. So by your assumption, each person working on Mystara Gazeteers was inherently wrong because they did not knew full lore, thus meaning their work should be discarded and entire setting no longer exists?

If you still cling to Half-orcs and inherently evil Orcs, you should consider if 5.5 is for you, considering the game moved away from both. Including toning Grummsh down (in my opinion they should make Grummsh just Orc aspect of Talos, especially if they're both now Odin-inspired) And was right to do it. "Inherently anything" races is a bad game design that limits roleplay opportunnities to no benefit than cannot be achieved without it.

And you would be surprised how annoyingly common are people who demand all Monks be from a monastery and bald-shaven because there was once in one book line of text describing them that way. People who are mad Monks are martial artists and not religious people who spend whole day brewing alcohol, praying and copying books also exist, but are irrelevant.
Your making the SAME assumption that nature could over power nurture. In a world where good and evil are tangible there's just as much a case nurture is not overpowering nature.

Especially when natural selection isnt the origin of species. Nurture does not have a stronger position here.
If anything, I'm making the opposite assumption, I beleive nurture overpowers nature. My entire point in the very post you quoted was that if PDK got bunch of Dragon eggs and raised the dragons, they would not be adhering to principles of "Amethyst Dragon Society", however nonsensical they may be.
Incorrect. I don't think this is a good understanding of alignment. I use it still to great effect.
I did not see good use of Aligment in this thread, not with the idea Neutral means somehow both fiercely independent and adhering to strict code of rules and refusing to take sides in a conflict at all.
 


Amethyst Dragons ARE famously independent and isolationist to the point that there's no way there'd be enough of them in the area to make that kind of alliance (parents stay together long enough for procreation and then leave far away, Cormyr's got enough space for maybe 2 of them if they're especially sociable for their species).
The PDKs are being described as a having a much larger area than just Cormyr now. They are global, even if they have their seat of power in the Dales. Space isn't an issue.
Moreover Amethyst Dragons are also noted for preferring diplomacy over violence to the point of trying to mediate conflicts between Fiends, so them sending their children off to fight is ALSO OOC.
PDKs are also diplomats. They got bonuses to diplomacy and were polyglots. And I would guess they would act like Jedi: keepers of the peace, not soldiers.
Purple Dragon Knights on the other hand are all about banding together and have incredibly strong moral and ethical rules. They're also a nationalist group dedicated to the crown and favor taking action even if it means violence.
Were. As stated, they have grown beyond just the kingdom of Cormyr. They have to have a larger call than to spread Cormyrian hegemony for that to be true. Per the UA "Although the Purple Dragons were originally founded in Cormyr, new recruits are enlisted from any realms where chivalry is in abundance, including the Silver Marches, Damara, and Chessenta." That tells me they are interested in something larger than Cormyr.
So the opposite of Amethyst Dragons.
Not entirely. They both seem interested in diplomacy first, but will not back down from a fight. Per Fizban, they are more esoteric and interested in planar incursions, so it's absolutely possible that a planar incursion (say, in the heart of Myth Drannor?) would lead some amethyst dragons to ally with humanoids both seeking to stop them. Then they spread out looking for more signs of corruption. The PDKs morph into a sorta Faerun Defense Force of chivalrous knights and philosopher dragons.

There, I just tied the opposites together.

Multiple people already pointed this out. No in-universe reason has been provided for why this alliance makes sense and it's obvious it was just having the Purple Dragon Knights get paired with dragons with purple scales, which is ridiculous.
No in-universe reason had been provided yet. You know what else hasn't been given an in universe explanation? Why Calimshan is now a magi-tek setting. Why Icewind Dale is now a horror setting (at least Rime of the Frost Maiden gives some background for that). How the Moonshaes morphed into a fully fey kingdom vs Irish x Vikings. We don't know a lot about what changes are coming to the mini settings. You can't rely on "but the lore from 2e says" because I have a Ravenloft book to sell you that proves how much they care about 2e lore. I assure you, once the book comes out, we'll have our answers.
 

The back and forth in this thread makes me wonder how representative of the player base in these forums are and as a result of the survey process for UAs is a good thing. Clearly there are a lot of forum users that wanted to see the dragon riding subclass and a lot of forum users that are attached to older edition lore. As a result complicated feedback on a subclass like this this is always going to be a problem, as your loudest most online connected individuals are going to be over represented in the process.

I suspect that if they did small listening group sessions at a big convention like Gen Con the feedback would be more useful and as a result the books would be better.
 

This is all why no one should actually want an updated FR campaign setting book for 5E. What you all actually want is the Grey Box republished with a 5E sticker on the front. ;)
To be honest, I'm not unconvinced that most D&D players would be unhappy just buying 1e over and over again every 10 years.
 

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