Push/pull/slide through enemies/allies?

[DEFCON 1]

Let's say a monster tries to slide Player X through Player Y's square. Player Y will naturally object to this; she doesn't want her ally moved through her square to a disadvantageous location! If I go by the RAW, then I have to tell her she can't stop it, and either come up with some shaky in-game justification or simply resort to "them's the rules"--both of which I feel are disruptive to immersion.

But then again... you can also have the situation where the Large or Huge monster with the oversized greatclub swings and connects with Player X and and hits him so hard he gets to slide Player X three squares as the player flies across the room. Why or how can Player Y stop this from occuring, even if Player X goes flying right next to him? If anything... if we're talking immersion here... if Player Y tries to stop Players X by getting in his way... Player X should just as easily get slammed INTO Player Y... thereby sending both of them tumbling three squares. That's just as valid a rules interpretation if we're using the "reality" and "physics" of the situation in order to justify the game mechanics.

Obviously the immersion reasoning affects people in many different ways, and what bothers one person doesn't affect another in the slightest... but this is exactly why I don't bother trying to use real-world science or physics to explain, change or justify why the game mechanics do things a certain way. There's always another case where using the real-world to justify game rules just breaks things down.

 

[Rune]

As an example an honorable Knight might not want to take the Combat Advantage bonus just because his opponent is flanked. The rule says no matter what, if you are involved in a flank then you get the bonus. So should I force him to shift so he does not get it? Or just let him not take the bonus and let the player visualize his character how he wants? Clearly he should be allowed to break the rule and not take the bonus.

Of course, in this situation, whoever is flanking with the knight would also have to miss out on the bonus (and any sneak attack damage), as the flankee would know he could safely turn his back on the knight.

 

[TDarien]

Also, I would rule if the character that has an active ability that lets him/her move through enemy's spaces (such as the Level 1 Barbarian Daily Thunder Hooves Rage), they could be forcibly moved through them as well.

 

[DracoSuave]

Also, I would rule if the character that has an active ability that lets him/her move through enemy's spaces (such as the Level 1 Barbarian Daily Thunder Hooves Rage), they could be forcibly moved through them as well.

So long as said movement is allowed during a walk action, you'd be correct.

If that movement modifies shifts, or such, then it would not allow you to walk through those spaces, and thus would not allow forced movement.

 

[Aegeri]

There are also powers that let you slide/pull/push enemies through your allies or even intervening terrain as well (as they ignore any objects/creatures in the way).

 

[Chzbro]

Revisiting this topic due to an in-game discussion about it today.



It might be nitpicking, but I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that RAW states, "You can be forced through your allies, but not through enemies."


The rule says "Forced movement can’t move a target into a space it couldn’t enter by walking. The target can’t be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze into a space."


That's two things that forced movement CAN'T do; that does not necessarily mean that the opposite can be done, though. Saying "a man can't be a cat" doesn't automatically mean "a man CAN be a dog."


Movement is resolved 1 square at a time. The moment you are passing through an ally's square you are squeezing into a space with that ally; the rules normally allow this, but the 2nd part of the above rule seems to say that it's not allowed for forced movement. The target can't be "made to squeeze into a space," so he can't be made to move through an ally which (for 1 square) would cause him to squeeze into a space with that ally. (Two medium creatures forced to occupy the same 5 ft sq would be squeezing right?) Also, since there are powers that allow you to push, pull, or slide through or into enemies, doesn't that suggest that you can't do that normally without such a power?


My opinion is that, by RAW, you can't force movement through the squares of enemies OR allies unless the power says you can. Seems like it just causes less headaches that way.

 

[Aulirophile]

You're not squeezing. Squeezing, for one, is an action that a creature has to take on its own. Even if you are put in a situation where you would normally have to squeeze, not only don't you, but you can't. The "end legal square" rules come into play and you rewind to that last legal square.

Being in a square with an ally, as long as you are moving through the square and do not stop there, is not squeezing. If you are slid into the square and the Forced Movement ends, you rewind to the last legal square. That is the RAW.

You can fluff this however you want. Your allies jump out of the way because if they didn't the force of the push/pull/slide would knock them over (and, indeed, there are powers that function like that and the flavor text is that they didn't dodge).

 

[Chzbro]

Okay, I can totally buy that, and I stand corrected on squeezing.

Although I have to say I don't like that much either. It means that a trapped hallway that slowly narrowed would eventually fire a PC back out of it like a spitball as long as he didn't move (so long as it squeezed him rather than him squeezing into it).

I don't mind houserules, but I like to follow RAW when possible. Somehow, "I can't push you through my friends but I can push you through your friends" just feels like a rules loophole instead of "working as intended."

You say fluff it however you want, but there's really only one way to fluff it which you already provide. Somehow, though, that fluff mysteriously ceases to work if I'm pushed into my enemies. My allies leap out of the way; my enemies catch me, brush the dirt off my lapels, and ask, "Are you okay, man? You almost went flying right past me."

 

[Unwise]

Thanks for posting the rules above, I had wondered about this.

I never really looked at the rules for this. I just made a house rule that you can let enemies slide through your square, if you and the person doing the sliding could be described as working "as a well oiled machine". So an experienced group of PCs can do it, disciplined hobgoblins, a bad guy and his elite bodyguards etc. A typical bunch of random monsters will just make the sliding person bump into their ally and stop.

Stopping an ally from being sliden through you is doable, but you get hit by an easy to resist attack vs fortitude or get knocked back (or prone if crit etc) yourself.

 

[andy3k]

It means that a trapped hallway that slowly narrowed would eventually fire a PC back out of it like a spitball as long as he didn't move (so long as it squeezed him rather than him squeezing into it).

Nice try but I don't think so. Rewinding to the last legal square only occurs during movement. If the PC does not move that round, the only legal square is the one he stands in. The character can choose to squeeze or not to squeeze when the walls close in, but not squeezing means he takes serious crushing damage and is slowed. Not much of a choice ... but it's a choice.