D&D 5E Q&A 10/17/13 - Crits, Damage on Miss, Wildshape

But sure, as to your question, why not?
OK. What sort of tissue damage to the brain? And why is tiring someone out not also tissue damage in the relevant sense (eg wear and tear to muscles, build up of carbon dioxide, etc)?

See, now you are reduced from arguing that the interpretation is not consistent, to arguing that it isn't 'realistic' for a brain to be able to recover from injury.
"Reduced"? I see the healing mechanics as informing the best interpretation of the injury mechanics.

Does the text need to tell us, "Oh yeah, for the purposes of the game many physical injuries that would be crippling and permanently debilitating in the real world just get better." Would that make you feel better about the fiction?
It would help settle a question of interpretation, sure.

As it is, the books don't say that and the question of interpretatin is therefore not as such settled in the way you prefer. (And it's not as if even the literal text is always governing. For instance, the rules allow beings to be saved from near-death by Curing their Light Wounds.)
 

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OK. What sort of tissue damage to the brain? And why is tiring someone out not also tissue damage in the relevant sense (eg wear and tear to muscles, build up of carbon dioxide, etc)?

In theory it could be. But the sort of exertion that we would expect to cause that sort of damage due to wear and tear would not be something that we'd expect to happen after a few seconds of vigorous exercise, else we'd expect a few seconds of running up stairs or dancing or calisthenics to cause hit point damage - and they don't. If we demand even half the consistency from your interpretation that you are demanding from my quoting the plain text of the rules to you, surely the world you imagine is one where we ought to be careful to avoid asking a lady to dance, because six seconds on the dance floor could be lethal.

But in point of fact, I don't think you give a flying crap about consistency. Instead, I think you are perfectly fine saying, "Yeah, spending six seconds dodging the attacks required so much energy and effort that it caused wear and damage to your muscles equivalent to 30 hit points of damage, but of course running up stairs for six seconds is never nearly so tiring."

Additionally, in both 1e and 3e fatigue from lengthy vigorous exercise is tracked with a completely different mechanic than hit points. If it was sufficient to track fatigue through hit points, why the need for a different mechanic? Why not just say, "After the end of his rage, a barbarian takes 3d6 damage from fatigue."? I mean if fatigue and damage are the same thing, right? Likewise, if hit points are fatigue, then making attacks is at least as damaging as defending against them. It requires far more energy to be on the offensive in most cases, than it does to block and evade attacks.

"Reduced"? I see the healing mechanics as informing the best interpretation of the injury mechanics.

Ok fine. Until 4e, the rules meant that injuries required days or weeks to heal. Under 1e, for a high level character, natural healing could require literally months. (It should probably not surprise you that under my 3e variant, natural healing requires twice as long as stock 3.X). Lengthy recovery of this sort is not consistent with mere fatigue caused by a few seconds of sprinting or bobbing and weaving. Of course, under 4e using the healing mechanics to inform the interpretation of the injury mechanics would leave us believing that either this is a world without injuries, or if they do occur they are almost invariably lethal.

It would help settle a question of interpretation, sure.

What question of interpretation? There is no question of interpretation in this. The rules here are perfectly plain and clear.
 


Thanks for the replies, guys, I don't have a whole lot to add. Regarding D&D being a confused animal, I found an article where Mearls discusses different roleplaying agendas
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20110614

If damage on a miss is focused on the "abstraction" and "tactics", where does it leave "story" and "immersion"? If all rules are designed with "story" and "immersion", where does it leave "abstraction" and "tactics"? D&D still doesn't know AFAICT

OK. What sort of tissue damage to the brain? And why is tiring someone out not also tissue damage in the relevant sense (eg wear and tear to muscles, build up of carbon dioxide, etc)?
The same sort of tissue damage when psychic superheroes or supervillians aim a psychic ray, sometimes physically knocking opponents away? It isn't hardcore sim, this is world building. So what would be the purpose of scrutinizing the story or world-building of a hp-as-meat game or any story/sim mechanic, when the fictional positioning of player fiat mechanics is never scrutinized so?
 

If damage on a miss is focused on the "abstraction" and "tactics", where does it leave "story" and "immersion"? If all rules are designed with "story" and "immersion", where does it leave "abstraction" and "tactics"? D&D still doesn't know AFAICT

I don't understand why these two concepts are separate. If you can accept abstract, then the story and immersion follow.
 

Thanks for the replies, guys, I don't have a whole lot to add. Regarding D&D being a confused animal, I found an article where Mearls discusses different roleplaying agendas
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20110614

If damage on a miss is focused on the "abstraction" and "tactics", where does it leave "story" and "immersion"? If all rules are designed with "story" and "immersion", where does it leave "abstraction" and "tactics"? D&D still doesn't know AFAICT

The same sort of tissue damage when psychic superheroes or supervillians aim a psychic ray, sometimes physically knocking opponents away? It isn't hardcore sim, this is world building. So what would be the purpose of scrutinizing the story or world-building of a hp-as-meat game or any story/sim mechanic, when the fictional positioning of player fiat mechanics is never scrutinized so?

Well I will say this. If you leave out mechanics like "damage on a miss" then you draw less attention to the elephant in the room to where you can have abstraction and immersion. You will never have 100% immersion but it can get to tolerable levels. This mechanic actually causes the abstraction argument to fall apart to the point where it doesn't make any sense. You can't say it's X because of what happens in Y etc...
 

This mechanic actually causes the abstraction argument to fall apart to the point where it doesn't make any sense. You can't say it's X because of what happens in Y etc...

I find that this is only really an issue when you can only accept one explanation for a single action. when you open up to the idea that an action can be narrated in several different ways then the abstraction is not broken.
 

What about damage to a wraith or spectre?

What about damage caused by psionic attacks against psionics with no points left to deplete? (Is the tissue in their brains being damaged?! And then heaing via a few days rest?!)

I'm not even sure that damage to a skeleton or zombie is aptly characterised as tissue damage, any more than damage dealt to a door by an axe or to paper by fire is tissue damage.
All would be tissue damage the way I, Celebrim and apparently Gygax's definition of tissue damages/HP/physical damage works.

As Celebrim already said, part of the damage, some part any part, IS physical. It is happening. The sword/arrow scratches you. Because you have more HP than the hit causes you remain standing. If you did not then you would drop. But no matter what, every hit damages something, even if it is just a tiny scratch. Now, there is an element of vagueness about the REST of the hit. Someone getting hit by an arrow at low levels is going to die but at higher levels is able to shrug it off. That is where the luck, destiny, "fiat", part comes in. It hits them in a non vital part and they stay standing. But every hit is a hit. Every hit causes the necessity of rolling a save against poison.

This could be said for every single time anything or anyone takes HP damage during a D&D combat: "Bob deals damage and imagines the greatsword clipping the pixie..." Worse, what happens if the table agrees on the "exhaustion" narration for a hit but then somebody hits it with a healing spell?
Spell. Magic.

As long as it is, you have a built in explanation where one isn't given with a mundane/natural/non-magical one.

Swords don't fill the space with damage because they can't hit the full space. Magic can (when it is a fireball).

Magic can heal exhaustion just as it can heal HP. In 3e at least, you healed one or the other, usually, but not both. You can make people feel physically better without actually heal how tired they feel.

It's not clear from the text what wraiths and specters are made out of, but since at least magical weapons can cut it, it's got at least some physical substance. Ectoplasm maybe. Whatever ethereal things are made of - ether presumably. Or at worst, an energy field, which while intangible is nonetheless physical. Regardless, whatever the substance, from the general explanation of hit points, it's clear that if the sword whiffs and doesn't touch the substance of the wraith, it doesn't do damage and if it did do damage we know that it is because it can cut whatever wraiths are made of.
Same goes for the door that is damaged by fire. The damage/hit is accrued to the substance the object/person/creature is made of. Fire causes X hp in damage to the door's total HP. Makes sense. What would not make sense is if the door was immune to damage because it lacked skin or muscle.

So far as I know (and I admit my knowledge of 3rd psionic is quite limited, since I never embraced them, seeing as they were offered only as an alternative magic system) psionic combat was removed from the game by 3.5, but in general psionic attacks in 3rd edition for the most part did ability damage or put debuff conditions on the target very much like 1e. Those that do hit point damage, say psychic crush, presumably do physical damage to the brain - they explicitly did so in 1e. In fact, because by the definition and explanation provided for hit points, which I've already provided, we pretty much know that if some hit point damage has occurred, at least some physical wounds have also been sustained. The target may or may not have also lost some amount of metaphysical resources as part of evading the brunt of the attack, but if damage occurred the attack was by definition not completely evaded and some damage occurred. This is not only logical from the words 'hit' and 'damage' - to say nothing of the logic of the phrase 'hit point' itself - but explicitly stated by the text.
I understand you don't know. So I'll correct what I can. The following is wrong:

"[P]sionic combat was removed from the game by 3.5," is incorrect. There were psionics in 3.5.

That is all.

I'm talking about 1st ed AD&D, not 3E. A 1st ed psionic with no psionic defence points left to lose takes hp damage in lieu. What tissue is being damaged? The brain? Which then heals without treatment over the next X days?
What is wrong with it harming the brain? To me it makes perfect sense that it would. It would also, to me, follow that the brain would heal over time from such damage as all damage heals over time (doesn't it? we are talking about 1e). It makes far less sense (right off the bat) that a non-magical weapon could easily harm a magical (incorporeal) wraith on a miss, but that apparently you see as well. Do wraiths even get fatigued?
 

So what would be the purpose of scrutinizing the story or world-building of a hp-as-meat game or any story/sim mechanic, when the fictional positioning of player fiat mechanics is never scrutinized so?
Player fiat mechanics don't rest upon fictional positioning. That's what makes them meta-game, player-side mechanics!

All would be tissue damage the way I, Celebrim and apparently Gygax's definition of tissue damages/HP/physical damage works.

As Celebrim already said, part of the damage, some part any part, IS physical.
Now that you're working with such a liberal definition of "tissue damage", why is getting tired not tissue damage?
 

Now that you're working with such a liberal definition of "tissue damage", why is getting tired not tissue damage?
Why is lightning damage not fire damage or sonic damage? Some things are different. Fatigue is already factored in other ways.

Also, this has already been addressed by Celebrim (running up and down stairs).

Beyond that, the way it is defined by the wording of the ability does not say it tissue damage. Nor does Rodney. Only YOU are saying it should be fatigue and that fatigue should be able to do HP damage.

Further, there are far more consistent ways to do this ability with what it is TRYING to do. (I've covered them before, not going into it again here.)

Ultimately, fatigue just isn't HP/tissue damage. For example, I'm getting tired of this conversation but it isn't touching my HP. They are unrelated things. One measures health one measures.. I don't know.. semi-endurance I guess? In 3e that would be closer to non-lethal (as I said back when we first started this merry-go-round).
 

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