quality standards compliance decisions

[jmucchiello]

I am going that one extra step and organizing a general boycott of WotC/Hasbro (up to 18 folks so far).

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you are boycotting WotC, why are going to support their player network by increasing the amount of d20 compatible material on the market? Even if you just use the OGL, people who support WotC products will still be able to buy your products and use them with WotC products.

Shouldn't you be looking into alternate gaming systems, like the open Action! System. This way your products are still OGC and you help increase the network effect of the Action! System, in direct competition to the d20 system?

TDG is still going to use the d20 logo for now. But at no time would suggest a boycott. Even if I dropped WotCs logo, I'd still want access to their player network. I would feel funny boycotting the center of my player pool.

 

[Strutinan]

The odds of Mongoose changing it's art style is somewhere between nil and nonexistant. Thrughout the entire d20 cycle, they have been the "Black Dog Games" of WotC in all but name!

And don't forget that WotC/Hasbro can SELECTIVELY apply thier "decency" standard to anybody they wish, even choosing on a whim what is NOT "decent"!

The guidelines in the d20 usage Guide are only a legal sleight-of-hand. Read the paragraph immediately before them.

 

[Strutinan]

jmucchiello: An understandible posistion. What you have to realize is the situation this move of WotC/Hasbro's is creating.

In essence, they ae trying to stop the possibility of competition on any non-core product they produce (somebody somewhere mentioned a possible "d20 underwater" and "d20 Atlantis" scenario). The idea they are using is the totally-controlled "Quality Standards" clause. Sounda slot better than "Predatory Anti-Competative" clause, even though taht is exactly what it is.

I have no desire to crush the D&D product line, nor do I have a eisre to BE crushed by it's owner! All I , and 19 folks so far, want is to continue playing the game we love with the best products possible. Often in the past this has NOT MEANT WotC products!

What we are trying to do is send an obvious message the only ways possible: a letter-writing campaign and general boycott. WotC/Hasbro now knows (or will once the mail arrives) why their sales in this area are going down, and how to fix it. In the mean time, we will continue to play D&D using only the core books we already own, and any new 3rd-party product that comes out. We will NOT be purchasing additional Core Books, campaign materials, adventures, or sourcebooks produced by WotC. Neither will we be USING such materials.

Will this hurt our games? Oh, most deffinately. Hwoever, we believ in the long run that it will hurt LESS than having to turn to WotC for every "fresh" idea to add to the table! Competition is ALWAYS good for the market, and the consumer!

All WotC has to do to regain our purchase power is retract the assinine "Quality Standards" clause, and render the d20STL inviolate. A simple cahnge to the following would do it:

0. Perpetuity. Future versions of this license can be made. individual publishers have the right to use a future version, or this version, for each product. They must list in the compatibility text of their product which version of the d20 license they ar using.

5. Quality Standards. Any product that deals with themes such as sexuality, extreme violance, or intolelrance in any but a referrential manner must be labeled for Mature Audiences on the cover. The design and size of the label is up to the publisher, but is not to be illegible or cover less than one cubic inch of cover space. Wizards of the Coast in no way endorses any material that bears the d20 logo.

Now do you understand?

 

[Psion]

In essence, they ae trying to stop the possibility of competition on any non-core product they produce (somebody somewhere mentioned a possible "d20 underwater" and "d20 Atlantis" scenario). The idea they are using is the totally-controlled "Quality Standards" clause. Sounda slot better than "Predatory Anti-Competative" clause, even though taht is exactly what it is.

Of course you have evidence that this is what they intend to do?

This sounds vaguely familiar. PEG delayed releasing their game under d20 on the same sort of suppositions a long time ago (as I have pained to emphasize many times, WotC could have always done this.) Of course, it never happened.

WotC relies on a healthy market of supplementary material that is not cost effective for them to produce themselves to drive their own sales. This is the entire reason, from a business standpoint, behind the d20 license. It is not in their best interest to create a diaspora from their license as it certainly wouldn't help their sales.

Until I actually see them pull the carpet from under somebody for what can only be termed as anti-competitive reasons, I think I would have to dismiss your suppositions as yet more paranoid chicken-littlisms.

 

[jmucchiello]

jmucchiello: An understandible posistion. What you have to realize is the situation this move of WotC/Hasbro's is creating.

In essence, they ae trying to stop the possibility of competition on any non-core product they produce (somebody somewhere mentioned a possible "d20 underwater" and "d20 Atlantis" scenario). The idea they are using is the totally-controlled "Quality Standards" clause. Sounda slot better than "Predatory Anti-Competative" clause, even though taht is exactly what it is.

I have no desire to crush the D&D product line, nor do I have a eisre to BE crushed by it's owner! All I , and 19 folks so far, want is to continue playing the game we love with the best products possible. Often in the past this has NOT MEANT WotC products!

If you played GURPS, would you expect SJGames to freely license GURPS IP to the public for the creation of third party supplements? Must White Wolf open WoD to the public to get you to look at them?

Somewhere the privilige that WotC has granted to third-party developers, you've turned into a right in your mind. That is just wrong. The right to publish add-ons to D&D has only existed for 3 years. It did not have to exist ever.

Now they've decided they aren't happy with certain places third-parties can go with THEIR IP and have moved to prevent it. You should be happy they still allow anyone to play in their pool at all.

What we are trying to do is send an obvious message the only ways possible: a letter-writing campaign and general boycott. WotC/Hasbro now knows (or will once the mail arrives) why their sales in this area are going down, and how to fix it. In the mean time, we will continue to play D&D using only the core books we already own, and any new 3rd-party product that comes out. We will NOT be purchasing additional Core Books, campaign materials, adventures, or sourcebooks produced by WotC. Neither will we be USING such materials.

When you get that boycott in the tens of thousands, they might notice. As long as you produce d20 compatible products, you are just widening their potential sales.

Will this hurt our games? Oh, most deffinately. Hwoever, we believ in the long run that it will hurt LESS than having to turn to WotC for every "fresh" idea to add to the table! Competition is ALWAYS good for the market, and the consumer!

Competition in the RPG market was always build a better system up until 3 years ago. Only because WotC opened the d20 system has they been competition within a system.

Now do you understand?

No, because it makes no business sense for them to do so. You may as well ask them to replace the d20 logo with a D&D logo.

 

[Maggan]

No boycott for me

I own DaemonEye Publishing.

I am releasing all furture products d20STL-free.

I would be pleased as punch to start helping build recognition of rht Prometheus and Open Die logos (even thoughI think something less subjective should be used).

I am going that one extra step and organizing a general boycott of WotC/Hasbro (up to 18 folks so far).

Hi!

Just a quick note from me here. Any boycott driven by one publisher (you) targetting another publisher (WotC) will not get my support, even if you are only one guy (or two, or three..., I don't know) and WotC is... well WotC.

Also, the risk you run of being viewed as doing this for publicity and to drive sales of your own products are significant, and you should be vary of that fact. I myself believe you are doing this because you see this as the best way forward under the circumstances that WotC has brought us into, but I'm afraid not everyone will share my sentiments.

By all means organize a boycott, but beware of the risks you as a publisher (as opposed to the non-risks of you as a person) subject your company image to. Since your stated aim is to build brand recognition of an alternate logo indicating compatibility with D&D, I'd suggest that you don't start off by alienating the customer base that is crucial for such an attempt to succeed, by having you company publicily organise or support a boycott of D&D.

Cheers!

Maggan

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The odds of Mongoose changing it's art style is somewhere between nil and nonexistant.

I will bet you any sum you like that you will not see bare female nipples or genitalia in any d20-licensed product Mongoose produces from here on out.

Mongoose aren't fools; I wish the same could be said of all 3rd party publishers.


Wulf

 

[Strutinan]

Psion: You have evidence that that is NOT what they intend to do? What about the next exec in charge? The next owner? Waht about if control changes to a group that sees this as a means to get rid of something they hate, such as the 700 club?

Nobody can predict the futire, only foresee trends and dangers. That is a simple matter of experience and deduction. I see a very REAL possibility of damger to my company and my hobby if I continue with the d20 STL. I can either RISK EVERYTHING on the odds of it not coming to pass, or PROTECT EVERYTHING by taking measures now. I choose action over meekly sitting in the corner awaiting the bullet, or licking boots trying to avoid beeing on the "attack" list.

jmucchiello: Once the OGL/SRD came out, it DID become a "right" to produce products for it! That is what this is all about: producing the best possible materials under the OGL for the SRD!

The d20 STL was just a license for the use of a logo that indicates you have done so. Go ask Ryan Dancey about THAT, if you do not beleive me.

What it has been changed into is a voluntary blackmail option. "uh oh, I put the d20 logo on my "fluffy bunnies" book! I hope they don't take umbrage against my depiction of animals as unintelligent bests, or I could have to DESTROY MY ENTIRE STOCK OF ALL D20 MATERIAL!" Do you honestly not see a problem with that?!?!

Maggan: My company image aside, a boycott and letter-campaign is really the only option we truely have. I know I only have about 20 folks, but that constitutes a significant portion of purchase power in my small college town. And I have no idea how many of THEM have gotten others. I also do not know how many folks are persuing similar ideas independantly. As far as I know it COULD BE thousands, or just us.

In the end, all I can do is the best I am capable of. Thats all anybody can do.

If you or others take this as a sign for or against my company, so be it. If it all boils down to not being able to sell squat, or my favorite hobby becoming "Barbie d90210", I would rather lose every customer I ever had than subject the gaming community to THAT!

So is this for company publicity? If so, then it is the wrong sort! After all, I haven't even said WHAT or WHERE I sell stuff. The only folks who know are those who know us anyways, potential or past customers. Folks that most likley would have bought before this, many of whom (like you) are turned off by this "publicity". That directly translates into lost present and future sales.

"Publicity"? Lol, yeah sure, but it is all BAD!

Wulf Ratbane: Give it a few months for the next set of books to come out. The only foolish thing to do would be to ASSUME they will not change! After all, WotC can selectively apply the clause and most likley will do so in order to try and keep the logo strong.

Don't ask me, ask them. Then expect to see some gore and nipples in a few months.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

You need better meds. Or take more of the ones you have. Or something.

 

[jaerdaph]

You need better meds. Or take more of the ones you have. Or something.

Thank GOD somebody finally has the balls to stop humoring this "publisher".