Question about creating an Artificer above 1st level

[Kelleris]

Actually, the Craft skill and the Sleight of Hand skill let you convert time into gold (as well as converting risk into gold, in the latter case), and these aren't factored into your starting wealth. Now, I'd let a character with lots of ranks in Craft start with more gold than another character, but that's strictly a good-on-you-for-taking-flavor-skills and the-kindness-of-my-loving-DM's-heart kind of thing.

So yeah, they can be used to get gold. Heck, with a high enough Craft skill you could take an elf after the game begins and spend a century or two Crafting stuff to get more gold, and that would be an acceptable way to get "free" (non-adventuring) gold too, though heavily discouraged, of course.

The difference is that the Artificer goes like so:

Craft Reserve XP --> Gold.

The Rogue goes:

Time --> Gold.

XP is recognized in starting-resource terms, but time isn't.

And even aside from the fact that your're nerfing the Artificer with this ruling, doesn't it make sense to you that a party that "spent" one of their precious person-slots on a Craft-monkey as dedicated as the Artificer would break the wealth-by-level guidelines?

Think of it this way: all of the extra power they could have gotten by going with a Wizard instead of an Artificer (and I hope to great Juiblex that the Artificer is weaker than the Wizard if you strip out the Craft Reserve and other suchlike abilities) is being converted into gold, which goes right on top the wealth-by-level pile.

Or are you honestly saying that a party that has a Sorcerer with no item creation feats should be exactly as well-equipped as a party with an Artificer, who spends all his time making items? I'd feel pretty screwed in your game, then, if I were playing the Artificer. Since I should've just focused on my spellcasting instead of fighting the DM with item crafting.

 

[Jdvn1]

doesn't it make sense to you that a party that "spent" one of their precious person-slots on a Craft-monkey as dedicated as the Artificer would break the wealth-by-level guidelines?

The Perform skill also uses time to make gold. The Bard is a very specific class, but they both do other stuff than their specialty. I wouldn't give either extra wealth. And in a Rules forum, I'll try to stick to that.

 

[Kelleris]

The Perform skill also uses time to make gold. The Bard is a very specific class, but they both do other stuff than their specialty. I wouldn't give either extra wealth. And in a Rules forum, I'll try to stick to that.

Time --> Gold =/= XP --> Gold. See above.

Also, what?! "The Bard is a very specific class"? Did you miss the jack-of-at-least-a-couple-of-trades memo?

(Not that I wouldn't let a Bard who Performed a lot make some extra money off of it. However, given the fact that Perform, Craft, et al. actually make a heck of a lot less than adventuring it wouldn't really amount to much. No more than a few thousand at high level.)

 

[Jdvn1]

Time --> Gold =/= XP --> Gold. See above.

I'm referring to the specificness of the class, though. I think the first sentence might throw you off, though.

 

[Kelleris]

I'm referring to the specificness of the class, though. I think the first sentence might throw you off, though.

Whether the class is all that specific or not is debatable, but also doesn't have anything to do with my argument, which concerns the fact that gold and XP are the measure of a character's starting power, and time doesn't enter into the equation. The Artificer gives you more XP as a class ability to convert into magical items. The extra magical items from the Craft Reserve are essentially a class ability. They have nothing to do with the wealth-by-level guidelines, and are essentially totally independent.

 

[Jdvn1]

Whether the class is all that specific or not is debatable, but also doesn't have anything to do with my argument, which concerns the fact that gold and XP are the measure of a character's starting power, and time doesn't enter into the equation. The Artificer gives you more XP as a class ability to convert into magical items. The extra magical items from the Craft Reserve are essentially a class ability. They have nothing to do with the wealth-by-level guidelines, and are essentially totally independent.

I was referring to specificness in reference to:

And even aside from the fact that your're nerfing the Artificer with this ruling, doesn't it make sense to you that a party that "spent" one of their precious person-slots on a Craft-monkey as dedicated as the Artificer would break the wealth-by-level guidelines?

Since I still don't think I'm nerfing the Artificer.

 

[Kelleris]

I was referring to specificness in reference to: Since I still don't think I'm nerfing the Artificer.

Ah, well, since you've refrained from dealing with my main point (that more magical items than the norm is an Artificer class ability), I suppose I haven't got anything more to say, unless anyone else on this thread feels the same way you do but hasn't yet spoken up.

 

[Jdvn1]

Ah, well, since you've refrained from dealing with my main point (that more magical items than the norm is an Artificer class ability), I suppose I haven't got anything more to say, unless anyone else on this thread feels the same way you do but hasn't yet spoken up.

Well, if you really want to see why I didn't address the rest of your post, this is what went through my mind...

Actually, the Craft skill and the Sleight of Hand skill let you convert time into gold (as well as converting risk into gold, in the latter case), and these aren't factored into your starting wealth. Now, I'd let a character with lots of ranks in Craft start with more gold than another character, but that's strictly a good-on-you-for-taking-flavor-skills and the-kindness-of-my-loving-DM's-heart kind of thing.

I agree with all of this. That you let a character with Craft start with more money seems odd, and to be consistent you'd probably also do it with Perform, but that's probably a moot point.

So yeah, they can be used to get gold. Heck, with a high enough Craft skill you could take an elf after the game begins and spend a century or two Crafting stuff to get more gold, and that would be an acceptable way to get "free" (non-adventuring) gold too, though heavily discouraged, of course.

... So you'd allow it, but wouldn't like it. Okay. If a character did this in his past, he'd start with a lot of gold. With how I rule it, it's not possible to do this.

The difference is that the Artificer goes like so:
The Rogue goes:
XP is recognized in starting-resource terms, but time isn't.

Also agree. So you're penalizing those who gain wealth by time, or giving them a severe advantage (although you frown on it). But your kindness-of-the-loving-DM's-heart ruling isn't in question here.

And even aside from the fact that your're nerfing the Artificer with this ruling, doesn't it make sense to you that a party that "spent" one of their precious person-slots on a Craft-monkey as dedicated as the Artificer would break the wealth-by-level guidelines?

That's the one I referred to.

Think of it this way: all of the extra power they could have gotten by going with a Wizard instead of an Artificer (and I hope to great Juiblex that the Artificer is weaker than the Wizard if you strip out the Craft Reserve and other suchlike abilities) is being converted into gold, which goes right on top the wealth-by-level pile.

This is an extension of the previous paragraph, and the Bard example applies here.

Or are you honestly saying that a party that has a Sorcerer with no item creation feats should be exactly as well-equipped as a party with an Artificer, who spends all his time making items? I'd feel pretty screwed in your game, then, if I were playing the Artificer. Since I should've just focused on my spellcasting instead of fighting the DM with item crafting.

Also an extension of the previous paragraph.

I didn't refrain from commenting on your main point, I just don't think you really said anything else about it.

 

[KerlanRayne]

In response to the original point of the post, have the player list all the items the character would have made, from highest to lowest. Assign magic items in order to the highest level untill no more will fit, then go to the previous level and repeat. When all items are assigned, the rest of the reserve is assume to have been spent on items already consumed. (Scrolls, potions, etc.) I don't have the craft reserve numbers handy but here is a rough example:

Items crafted: 500 xp, 300 xp, 250 xp, 100 xp, 100 xp, 100 xp, 20 xp

Level 8 = 1,000 xp - 500 xp - 300 xp = 200 xp (not enough for next item)
Level 7 = 500 xp - 250 xp - 100 xp - 100 xp = 50 xp (not enough for next item)
Level 6 = 300 xp - 100 xp - 20 xp = 180 xp

So 1,370 xp was spent on items still carried, and 430 xp was spent on items already used.

KerlanRayne

 

[cmanos]

if you are starting her at L10, give her an XP pool of 45000 + the cumulative craft reserve (1200). Have her give you a list of what she wants to have created prior to starting, figure out how much XP it would cost, deduct that from the total and see what level that would place her at.