Question about Empower Spel

[Greenfield]

This is D&D 3.5 topic, but I think the question applies to any edition where spells can be Empowered.

The feat says it increases all variable numeric effects of the empowered spell are increased by one half.

Obviously the Feat enhances direct damage rolls, such as Fireball damage

Does it add to the Attack roll for spells requiring one? (I'm thinking no, because that isn't an "effect of the spell", but rather part of the mechanics to see whether the spell has an effect.)

When applied to Black Tentacles, as the spell or to the related Warlock invocation, does it affect damage rolls done by the tentacles? That is, indirect damage? (Since the Grapple check is an opposed roll, which is specifically excluded by the feat description, that aspect is a non-starter.)

When applied to spells like Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally, if the caster is summoning D3 creatures a rank lower than the Summon spell, or a D4 +1 creatures two or more ranks lower, does it apply to those creature-count rolls?

Does it apply to attack and/or damage rolls made by those creatures?

If it will enhance the damage of the Tentacles, shouldn't it also increase the damage rolls from summoned allies or creatures?

When applied to spells like Prismatic Spray, where a dice is rolled to determine which color affect a target must save against, dos it affect that dice roll?

When applied to Reincarnation or Last Breath, which involve a D100 roll to determine what type of creature the dead return as, does it increase that percentile roll?

When applied to any of the various Divination class spells that have a percentage chance of yielding useful information, are those numbers Empowered?

The list goes on, but I'm trying to define where the line is. Obviously it can be taken to irrational extremes, but sometimes irrational can be a lot of fun?

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It doesn't apply to attack rolls, ever.

It doesn't apply to anything done by a summoned creature, because the effect of the spell is just to summon it.

It does apply to the number of creatures summoned from a higher-level spell slot.

It doesn't affect percentile rolls in any case, since the roll isn't an effect; it's an intermediary step that goes toward determining the effect.

 

[Greenfield]

Why wouldn't it affect percentile dice rolls?

The feat never says it's limited to damage or D20s.

Not challenging so much as asking for a reason or rules citation.

 

[Greenfield]

I guess the question in my mind is this:

Why would damage done by a Tentacles spell be enhanced, and the damage done by a pack of summoned monsters not?

In both cases the spells are Conjuration school, and the things conjured may or may not do damage to someone or something.

In the one case the summoned Tentacles might, if they succeed on the Grapple check, and in the other the summoned monster(s) might if they succeed on an attack roll. DR applies equally in both cases, and SR is ignored equally in both cases.

The only difference is that the Tentacles are a magical effect and the monsters are the product of the magical effect.

Reincarnation and it's relatives return someone from the dead, and use a percentile dice to determine their new form. Why aren't those dice Empowered? They're as much a part of the spell effect is as the damage from an Acid Arrow.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Why wouldn't it affect percentile dice rolls?

The feat never says it's limited to damage or D20s.

Not challenging so much as asking for a reason or rules citation.

Percentile dice on a chart aren't an effect, and only the effects of the spell are empowered. Damage is an effect; it's a real thing that actually exists within the game world, and everyone can see it. Conditions are also an effect, but they aren't quantifiable, so being empowered doesn't help them.

Rolling on a chart is just a game mechanic. There is no actual chart out there, within the game world, which you're interacting with. The effect of the spell isn't that you roll on a chart; the effect of the spell is whatever the chart tells you to do.

 

[Greenfield]

By the same argument, there isn't a D3 or a D4+1 out there in the game world.

Monsters appearing is an effect. How is rolling to see how many any different from rolling to see what kind of creature a Reincarnated person comes back as?

(Note: I generally agree with you, but my agreement is gut level, not rules based, so I'm playing Devil's Advocate.)

 

[The Crimson Binome]

In the one case the summoned Tentacles might, if they succeed on the Grapple check, and in the other the summoned monster(s) might if they succeed on an attack roll. DR applies equally in both cases, and SR is ignored equally in both cases.

The only difference is that the Tentacles are a magical effect and the monsters are the product of the magical effect.

You said it yourself - the tentacles are the effect of the spell, and whatever the octopus does is just a by-product of the summoning. If you want to argue that it's inconsistent for one set of tentacles to work one way, based on whether or not they're attached to a monster, then you could certainly make a case for it. The spellcasting rules in that edition aren't perfect, and the real underlying reason why it works for one but not the other is just because of how it's written. (You could also argue that the Tentacle spell works by summoning 50% more tentacles, which is why they deal more damage, and you would get a comparable result out of summoning 50% more octopuses).

There's a similar loophole in the spell rules regarding damage spells that deal physical damage. The spell rules were written under the assumption that spells did energy damage, which is why they ignore DR, but then they went ahead and included a couple of spells that did physical damage; and those still bypass DR, because they're technically spells, even though they deal physical damage. Logically, a spell that throws a rock at someone for physical damage should be treated just like anyone else throwing a rock for physical damage, but the rules don't treat it that way.

Reincarnation and it's relatives return someone from the dead, and use a percentile dice to determine their new form. Why aren't those dice Empowered? They're as much a part of the spell effect is as the damage from an Acid Arrow.

The reincarnation table is just a randomizer. A roll of 60 isn't 50% more than a roll of 40; it's the difference between a goblin and a half-orc, and the two aren't quantifiable or comparable in any way. To contrast, Acid Arrow is a vector for acid damage, and 12 damage is 50% more than 8 damage.

 

[Greenfield]

Goblin v Orc? CR 1/3 v CR 1/2? Sounds like about a 50% upgrade to me.

You bring up an interesting point v DR, but I'll research that before asking the forum for input.