Question: How do you rationalize opportunity attacks?

[the Jester]

The thing is, you need to trade a lot of realism off or else the game bogs down tremendously. Or if you use too much realism, you break genre conventions.

For instance, a realistic damage system where you determine hit location, then apply penalties for broken bones, etc.; morale or coolness under fire rules for pcs ("oh no, my brave paladin just broke and ran"); realistic movement and facing rules (involving a reworking of initiative so I can't just circle to your rear every round); the differences in effectiveness of a mace vs. a sword against chain mail; the effects of different weights on grappling; encumberance effects of storing your items in different locations; realistic healing rules, including infections, gangrene and so forth; etc.

Note that D&D has experimented with some of these in a variety of ways at various times, but they have often been more trouble than they're worth.

 

[Water Bob]

The thing is, you need to trade a lot of realism off or else the game bogs down tremendously. Or if you use too much realism, you break genre conventions.

I disagree. I think there are ways to have the cake and eat it too.

As far as things like the flanking rule, that was dealt with much more realistically in AD&D 2E than it is in 3E, and the 2E rule certainly didn't bog things down any more than the 3E rule does.

For instance, a realistic damage system where you determine hit location, then apply penalties for broken bones, etc.; morale or coolness under fire rules for pcs ("oh no, my brave paladin just broke and ran"); realistic movement and facing rules (involving a reworking of initiative so I can't just circle to your rear every round); the differences in effectiveness of a mace vs. a sword against chain mail; the effects of different weights on grappling; encumberance effects of storing your items in different locations; realistic healing rules, including infections, gangrene and so forth; etc.

I think the AC and Hit Point system works fine. It's semi-abstract (I say "semi" because the abstract and non-abstract are mixed in the D&D combat round), so it allows for whatever you envision in your head.

When I ask myself why Gygax & Co. went with this system, I think of that scene in The Two Towers where Aragorn and Gimli launch themselves onto the ramp at Helms deep--just the ranger and the dwarf in a sea of orcs and goblins, with our two heroes completely destroying every opponent that came within reach of their weapons.

Realistic? No. Fantastic, cool, hero-stuff? Yes.

The AC and Hit Point system in D&D is flexible enough to handle that kind of visualization AND more realistic combat as we see in Braveheart without any real modification to the rule.

It's kinda brilliant how flexible it is.

And, the system as proved to be flexible enough to allow for modification towards one way or the other. So called Grace & Blood rules for Hit Points greatly ground the game in more realism, and D&D standard high hit point and high massive damage rules allow for heroic play as we saw with Aragorn and Gimli.

The Conan RPG, which I play, is basically 3.5 D&D, but the modifications made make the game have an entirely different, more gritty feel.

Getting what you want out of the D&D system (not only the d20 system, but earlier AD&D systems, too) is an achieveable goal.

You can play it as it is, or mod it.

Just look at all the d20 mods that are out there. Standard D&D 3.5 is different from the Conan RPG....is different from the Thieves World RPG....is different from the Black Company RPG...is different from Pathfinder...and so on. Yet all are based on the same system.

 

[Water Bob]

You had me curious about the D&D version of Grappling, so I looked it up.

I see the D&D version adds and extra throw.

In D&D, there is the touch attack first. Then the AoO. Then the Grapple.

I see the confusion. The Conan RPG throws out the first touch attack and combines that with the Grapple. So, in Conan, it's: AoO, then Grapple.

That is weird, that first touch attack. I like Conan's version better.

The Conan RPG has gone through three versions. The first is akin to D&D 3.0. The Atlantean Edition is Conan's answer to D&D 3.5. And then, there's another edition, the latest and last, that I play, called the 2nd Edition.

I notice in Conan and Conan AE that the grapple rule is as it says in the link above--that is, there's a separate attack throw to grab the target first, THEN a throw is made to grapple them.

In 2E, it looks like the Grapple rule was revamped into what I describe above, a simple two step process: 1 - Decide if an AoO is appropriate; 2 - Perform the Grapple (against an Opposed roll or Grapple AC, defender's choice).

It looks to me that the writers of the 2E Conan game recognized the issue with Grapple in D&D and changed it a bit to make it easier in the game.

 

[howandwhy99]

My only object is the number of dice being rolled.

Roll 1. Attack.
Roll 2. Opp Attack.
Roll 3 & 4. Opposed Grapple Checks.

It's too many rolls.

If you made 1 roll to grapple, that's much faster. I'm fine with it having the same effects - immobilized, have to use light weapons, can't attack others, etc. I just don't want to have to roll 4 dice to get there. I can kill an orc with two die rolls (attack and damage), but it takes 4 to grab him? And potentially 6 or 7 if I want to use him as a makeshift missile weapon against his buddies?

Let's make some of this easier.

It may suck, but I think they had a decent rationale. More rolls were added to increase the odds needed for success, while still allowing for mitigated success along the way.

If my action this turn is to make another helpless under my command (a nasty condition), then the odds are pretty high for my roll. Simply getting a hand on other guy first though, the initial condition, isn't that hard. So multiple rolls allow for ranges of success, while still rating total success as very unlikely.

 

[Janx]

My only object is the number of dice being rolled.

Roll 1. Attack.
Roll 2. Opp Attack.
Roll 3 & 4. Opposed Grapple Checks.

It's too many rolls.
---snip---
Let's make some of this easier.

Looking at the grappling problem, without looking at the rules, but knowing a few practical things about combat, here's what see:

most real fights end up on the ground in grappling anyway. You might start off trading punches or sword blows, but eventually somebody moves in even closer and grapples or throws the opponent.

This is actually trained technique. Historically, boys learned how to grapple BEFORE learning how to use a weapon, and part of the strategy is to move in close if you can, which renders your opponent's weapon useless.

Note, it's all about initiative. We can be trading blows with swords, and suddenly, as part of your block to my swing at your 1 (upper, outside quadrant), you step in with the block, keeping my sword extended and trap my arm with your off-hand. Then, you pivot your blade horizontal, smash my face with the pommel, and draw the sword across my throat.

There's a million variants, but the point is, sword fighting ain't just clanging blades together. At some point, one side moves in close.

Here's my premise, both sides have a weapon, it's your turn, and you want to grapple. There's some risk to it, and the move is usually tied to a counter-move to an attack, rather than a straight rush to grapple.

Let's say this causes an AoO, either because you're suddenly moving in and the enemy is reacting defensively, or your stepping in is BECAUSE of his attack. Either way, it happens on your turn, not his, so AoO fits well enough.

After the AoO, you've moved in, and get a choice of effects, a throw, a pin, a disarm. a stun plus some damage probably.

I'll justify the damage part with the observation that all the fighting I was trained to do included inflicting injury as part of the throw. Generally, you don't hold back in a real fight, and in training, you take precautions or avoid certain moves BECAUSE it will really cause injury in its default state.

To keep things simple sort of simple, the attacker and defender's AC should be calculated with STR or DEX, whichever is better for "grappling" attacks. In a fight, either one is handy to have, both would be handy, but let's not get munchkin.

Just make one Grappling attack roll against the defender's Grappling AC, and get your choice of effects:
a throw: the oponnent ends up prone in the square you came from (trade places) and takes some damage 1d4 or 1d6 is fine)
a pin: the opponent is unable to move or attack, until they succeed at a Grapple attack to break free on their turn.
a disarm: the opponent drops their weapon/item and takes 1d4 damage from the harm you did coaxing the weapon from their hand
a stun: you hit a nerve point or something (throat punch?) and they take 1d4 damage and are stunned for the round.

I just made this all up, but the gist is, if 2 unarmed people are grappling, no AoO, if you want to grapple and armed oponent (whether you are armed or not) you will trigger 1 initial AoO to close in with them, before you make your grapple attack.

The grapple attack is 1 roll, using your Grapple BAB vs. the opponent's Grapple AC.
If you it, based on the kind of attack you chose, you get the effect it renders.

Amen.

 

[the Jester]

Oh dear. As messy as 3e's grappling system is, it's nothing compared to 1e's, and is hardly Gygaxian...

Here's the 1e, full-Gygax grappling system; note that EGG later added another, simpler grappling system in Unearthed Arcana.

Grappling: This attack form is aimed at holding the opponent and rendering him or her helpless. Damage sustained is 25% actual and 75% incidental, which is restored at 1 hit point per round. As in pummeling attacks, a score of 0 equals unconsciousness, 1 round plus 1 round for each point of minus damage sustained.

Determination of First Attack Initiative: Surprise, charging to attack, higher dexterity, higher die roll- in that order.

Base Score to Grapple: Multiply attacker's armor class by 10, ignoring magical devices (bracers, cloaks, rings, etc) but adding 1 for each +1 of magical armor, to find a percentage cahnce from 100% to 0%. Note: The attacker cannot grapple if either or both hands are holding anything. The base chance to grapple is modified as follows:

Attacker's dexterity, per point: +1%
Defender's armor protection is-
---leather or padded: +10%
---chain, ring, scale: +20%
---banded, plate, splint: +30%
Opponent slowed or stunned: +20%
Opponent base movement 3" faster: -10% per 3"
Opponent hasted (includes speed potion): -20%

In each round of grappling combat there will be an attack and a counter. Any existing hold automatically goes first until broken. Once it is determined that a grappling attack succeeds, the percentile dice must rolled again to find out what hold is gained. The dice roll is modified as follows:

Attacker's dexterity, per point: +1%
Attacker's strength-
---per point: +1%
---per 10% over 18: +1%
Opponent slowed: +10%
Opponent stunned: +20%
Opponent helpless: +30%
Per 10% weight difference (attacker): +/-5%
Per 10% height difference (attacker)*: +/-5%
Opponent dexterity, per point over 14: -2%
Opponent strength-
---per point over 12: -1%
---Per 10% over 18: -1%
Opponent wearing banded or plate mail: -10%
Opponent wearing gorget and helmet: -10%
Opponent using shield: -10%

*Halved if prone.

Bonuses and penalties are totalled and the result added to the result of the percentile dice roll. The grappling table is then consulted for the result.

GRAPPLING TABLE
Adjusted Dice Score -- Result -- HP or Special Damage Scored
under 21 -- waist clinch, opponent may counter -- none
21-40 -- arm lock//forearm/elbow smash -- 1 + strength bonus
41-55 -- hand/finger lock//bite -- 2 + strength bonus
56-70 -- bear hug/trip -- 3 + str bonus
71-85 -- headlock//flip or throw -- 5 + str bonus
86-95 -- strangle hold//head butt -- 6 + str bonus
over 95 -- kick/knee/gouge -- 8 + str bonus, opponent stunned

Any hold shown remains in effect from round to round unless the opponent scores a higher percentage hold, i.e. arm lock breaks a waist clinch, a hand/finger lock breaks an arm lock, and so forth. Damage accrues until a hold is broken or until the holder elects to try for a different hold. The opponent may still inflict damage by lesser hold results shown after the double slashes (//). These might result in both opponents falling to the ground and continuing their grappling there. Note: If an opponent is stunned, a second attack may immediately be made, and the stunned opponent cannot counter for 1 round.

Egads!

 

[Mercutio01]

[MENTION=1210]the Jester[/MENTION] - I have no idea what I just read and I can't xp you, but know that I'm laughing my ass off trying to puzzle that system out.

 

[the Jester]

[MENTION=1210]the Jester[/MENTION] - I have no idea what I just read and I can't xp you, but know that I'm laughing my ass off trying to puzzle that system out.

It gets worse when you realize that monsters generally had no height, weight, strength or dexterity listed.

 

[Wiseblood]

Actually, no it isn't.

The default logic in 3e for both cases is, yes, you get to hit him, and the "drop your guard" argument goes on as presented.

However, in 4e, drinking a potion- or drawing one- or sheathing a weapon- or standing up- etc.- does NOT provoke.

This nicely illustrates that AoOs, or OAs, are a gamist construct designed to punish certain inept tactics.

Being paralyzed, being a tree, being unarmed- those are bad circumstances, but not inept tactics. Turning your back on an armed, adjacent opponent is bad tactics. Drawing and/or drinking a potion might be on the list of "punishably inept tactics", depending on what edition you're playing.

Punishably inept fails to describe it accurately. Punishably inept would impose a penalty to ac. It would not grant special ability to launch extra attacks at full bab. It's just bad design (or punishingly inept )with ripple effects.

 

[Water Bob]

LOL. I remember trying to make sense of 1E's grapple system. I don't remember 2E's system being much better. It was better, but not by much.

And, I understand why the 3E designers have that touch attack in there. They wanted the grapple to be harder than a standard touch attack. Otherwise, the simple system (like the one I'm using in Conan 2E) makes it the same as being able to touch someone.

And, just touching someone should be a lot easier than actually grappling them and wrestling them to the ground.

Hm.. That's actually a pretty good argument to keep that touch attack in there.




I also think that grappling somone should have have a big chance of the two of them going prone. Rarely do you see people wrestling standing up. Most of the time, they're skidding around on the ground.