Question of Crit Range

[Balgus]

I know that it is understood that keen and impr crit doubles the natural crit range, and that is how I have been playing for two years.

But I was rereading OA last night and found this:

Under weapon master (i think page 54- sorry i don't have book with me) there is a class ability that gives him +2 to crit range. But it specifically states that it MUST be added after all the bonuses from keen weapon and impr crit is added.

If you use the "double natural crit range" rule, then it does not matter if you add teh +2 before or after the Impr Crit and keen. The only time it matters if the double means you double the CURRENT crit range.

EX- fighter with keen GS, impr crit and WM ability.
*normal crit rules- only double natural range:
add before: normal (19-20) +2 WM (17-20) doubled for keen (15-20) doubled for impr crit (13-20)
*added after: normal (19-20) doubled for keen (17-20) doubled for impr crit (15-20) +2 WM (13-20)
*no difference.

+2 makes a difference:
add before: normal (19-20) +2 WM (17-20) doubled for keen (13-20) doubled for impr crit (5-20)
*added after: normal (19-20) doubled for keen (17-20) doubled for impr crit (13-20) +2 WM (11-20)
* there is a big difference.

 

[Mr Fidgit]

* there is a big difference.

i think that's why it's written that way...

the kensai weapon master is exactly the same as the Sword and Fist weapons master, but some of the abilities were re-written to be more clearly defined

 

[Li Shenron]

I thought that if it's 19-20, with improved critical AND keen weapon it becomes 15-20, not 13-20.

If you apply the general rule that "doubling" means +100% of the original value, adding "+2" (that is, lowering the crit range by 2) is the same if done before or after.

 

[Balgus]

Fidget:
the kensai weapon master is exactly the same as the Sword and Fist weapons master, but some of the abilities were re-written to be more clearly defined

But by writing it that way (specifically stating "it must be added afterwards") it is undermining the accepted rule of doubling the normal crit range.

By stating that, it is implying that there is a difference between adding it before and after, and in this case, they want you to add it after. And by saying that, they are saying that they did not intend for you to double the normal crit range, but double the range you have now.

And you still did not answer the question...

I am still confused...

 

[Balgus]

Li Shenron:
I thought that if it's 19-20, with improved critical AND keen weapon it becomes 15-20, not 13-20.
If you apply the general rule that "doubling" means +100% of the original value, adding "+2" (that is, lowering the crit range by 2) is the same if done before or after.

You should go back and reread the numbers. WHat you are asking is the hypothetical situation where doubling means doubling the "current" crit range. I explained all four scenarios (add WM+2 before doubling orig crit range, after, before current crit range, aftre)

My big question is this:
If you double the orig crit range (like it is generally accepted) then it should not matter if you add the +2 WM before or after (as with the first scenario).
The only time it matters is when you double the Current crit range (as per the second scenario).

So by stating it matters if you add it before or after, they are implying that you should go by the second scenario, thus, Impr Crit and keen should double your CURRENT criut zone, not the natural crit range.

hope that makes sense

 

[Mr Fidgit]

sorry, i thought you were just pointing that out...

there is a class ability that gives him +2 to crit range. But it specifically states that it MUST be added after all the bonuses from keen weapon and impr crit is added.

this is incorrect. Ki critical gives the weapons master the Improved Critcal feat for free. If the weaponsmaster already has it, it gives the +2 to the critical range

as you pointed out in your number crunching, to double the threat range after improved critical and keen would make that ability way too powerful (75% of the time, instead of 50%)

[edit - just saw your edit...hold please ]

 

[aliensex]

From the SRD:

Improved Critical [General]

Prerequisites: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8 or higher.

Benefit: When using the weapon the character selected, the character's threat range is doubled.

Special: The character can gain this feat multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time the character takes the feat, it applies to a new weapon.

Note: "Keen" magic weapons also double their normal, nonmagical threat range. As with all doubled doublings, the result is triple.

So, the stacking of Improved Critical and Keen Edge enhancement or spell, means the crit range is just tripled. And the extra +2 is added on the end. So your first scenerio comes up with the correct result, just the wrong way

 

[Mr Fidgit]

where's kreynolds?! (i'm sure he could explain this much more clearly...)

it is undermining the accepted rule of doubling the normal crit range.

Li Shenron and aliensex are essential stating the same (correct) thing. from the PH, under Improved Citical, "As with all doubled doublings, the result is triple."

 

[Balgus]

Mr Fidgit:
where's kreynolds?! (i'm sure he could explain this much more clearly...)

I know and understand the rule. I am just saying that by making a big deal about adding it before or after the doubling of crit ranges by impr crit and keen, they are basically saying that we should use the second scenario.

I am not saying that it makes sense or even change my way of playing cause of it. I am just pointing it out.

I guess i would feel better if someone just says, it was a booboo on their part. It makes no difference...

 

[Li Shenron]

You should go back and reread the numbers. WHat you are asking is the hypothetical situation where doubling means doubling the "current" crit range. I explained all four scenarios (add WM+2 before doubling orig crit range, after, before current crit range, aftre)

I quoted the scenario of yours that in my opinion is the right one.

There is no doubling the "current" crit range.

So by stating it matters if you add it before or after, they are implying that you should go by the second scenario, thus, Impr Crit and keen should double your CURRENT criut zone, not the natural crit range.

I wouldn't be so sure of the implication. It's not the only time when, while trying to better remark a simple rule, they create a "leakage" which has the exact opposite effect of making it feel not so simple anymore.