question on ardent choice of powers

[samb1230]

At first blush ardent seems a bit underpowered, less powers, less power points, less selections, and the powers seem to be underpowered. But then I noticed that ardent does not have a 'max power level' on its chart. And it seems to imply that an ardent can pick any power as long as he has the power points to cast it.

from complete psionics:

"[an ardent] must be able to manifest the new power at the level she learned it. "


This seems almost too good. Say if i had a egoist 3 with 17 wisdom (determines the max lvl ardent power you can pick) and I took one level in ardent with mental might mantle does that mean I can pick ultrablast as a lvl 4 character? As a plain psion I would need to get to lvl 14 and be a telepath and if this is true i could technecally get a lvl 7 power even sooner if intel bonus points were added in.

Another way to read it is power points needed to manifest the new power must be equal or less than the ardent's class level, as the authors then would to explain in an example. This would make sense but seems to completely contradict the quoted sentance.

 

[krupintupple]

not having my books around me, i'd think that your proposed combination would leave you with a manifester level of 3 for your egoist, and a manifester level of 1 for your ardent - they don't stack.

i'm quite unsure about ultrablast, but considering it's a 7th level power, the chances of legally being able to obtain it as a 4th level character are fairly slim; even if somehow legal, a DM might houserule otherwise for balance purposes.

 

[Starbuck_II]

At first blush ardent seems a bit underpowered, less powers, less power points, less selections, and the powers seem to be underpowered. But then I noticed that ardent does not have a 'max power level' on its chart. And it seems to imply that an ardent can pick any power as long as he has the power points to cast it.

from complete psionics:

"[an ardent] must be able to manifest the new power at the level she learned it. "


This seems almost too good. Say if i had a egoist 3 with 17 wisdom (determines the max lvl ardent power you can pick) and I took one level in ardent with mental might mantle does that mean I can pick ultrablast as a lvl 4 character? As a plain psion I would need to get to lvl 14 and be a telepath and if this is true i could technecally get a lvl 7 power even sooner if intel bonus points were added in.

Another way to read it is power points needed to manifest the new power must be equal or less than the ardent's class level, as the authors then would to explain in an example. This would make sense but seems to completely contradict the quoted sentance.

That means if you can manifest it (you can afford the Power point cost): you can use it.

A Egoist (psion) 4 /Ardent 2 with practiced manifester can pick Ardent powers as if
Manifester +4 for the Ardent at that second level:
Ardent Level 1: Limited to 1st level powers since before had Practiced Manifester
Ardent 2: Manifester 6 so up to 3rd level powers (add in Earth power) and maybe 4th level powers.

Earth Power lowers power point cost by 1 so you can manifest up to a 4th level power (since it only costs 6 power points and your manifester is 6).

As an Ardent:
You are limited by
a. Power point cost (need a way to mitigate this)
b. Manifester level (multiclassed Ardents use Practiced Manifester)

 

[samb1230]

The levels don't stack, but the power points all go to one reserve. So a lvl 3 psion and lvl 1 ardentvwould have around 20 points depending bonuses. If the rules state that the only requirement is that the ardent needs have enough points then yes a lvl 4 would have enough to cast ultrablast which only needs 17.

It is not a house rule, power points from multiple manifasting classes all come from the same reserve.

 

[samb1230]

Practiced manifested is only for non manifesting classes. If i had a F4/psi warrior 2 practiced manifester would allow my manifesting lvl to be 6 instead of 2. Psion is a manifesting class so for the proposes of potentcy they stack. They do not however stack when it comes to learning new powers. A lvl4 psion will not have access to lvl3 powers if he took a lvl in psi warrior.

If practiced manifested worked the way you described then it would effectively make your manifesting classes gestalts. Imagine a psion1/psiwarrior4. With practiced manifester (the way you described it) he would effectively be a psi warrior all the powers and points of a lvl 5 psion AND lvl psi warrior! So no, I'm pretty sure manifesting lvls do not count for powers, or points (or any other manifesting class in general). That I am quite sure on (my DM would throw a fit if that were true).


My point is that I don't know what restrictions on ardents' powers are since they have no power level distinctions.

 

[irdeggman]

My point is that I don't know what restrictions on ardents' powers are since they have no power level distinctions.

The way I read the entries for Powers known and Mantles is that the ardent can choose powers listed in the mantles he has chosen. He is limited to the number known column on the class table. He must also be able to manifest that power. A psionic character is limited to spending a # of pp per his class level when manifesting a power and he must a primary ability score of 10 + the level of the power known.

All of the powers listed under the mantles available should be detailed either in the CP or expanded psionic handbook - with a pp cost to manifest.

For example a 5th ardent can know a max of 6 powers picked from his chosen mantles list (there are some other details on primary and secondary mantles and "balancing" the number known acrosss them, etc.) but none of them can cost more than 5 pp to manifest.

Ultrablast for instance has a pp cost of 15 to manifest so an ardent couldn't learn it until at least 15th level assuming it was on the list of powers for a chosen mantle.

 

[samb1230]

The way I read the entries for Powers known and Mantles is that the ardent can choose powers listed in the mantles he has chosen. He is limited to the number known column on the class table. He must also be able to manifest that power. A psionic character is limited to spending a # of pp per his class level when manifesting a power and he must a primary ability score of 10 + the level of the power known.

All of the powers listed under the mantles available should be detailed either in the CP or expanded psionic handbook - with a pp cost to manifest.

For example a 5th ardent can know a max of 6 powers picked from his chosen mantles list (there are some other details on primary and secondary mantles and "balancing" the number known acrosss them, etc.) but none of them can cost more than 5 pp to manifest.

Ultrablast for instance has a pp cost of 15 to manifest so an ardent couldn't learn it until at least 15th level assuming it was on the list of powers for a chosen mantle.

Ah so ardent lvl= point cap on what power you can use. Strange that they didn't mention that in the description. That would make it more balanced then, but still a very good dip class (hustle at lvl 1 is just too good).

 

[Starbuck_II]

If practiced manifested worked the way you described then it would effectively make your manifesting classes gestalts. Imagine a psion1/psiwarrior4. With practiced manifester (the way you described it) he would effectively be a psi warrior all the powers and points of a lvl 5 psion AND lvl psi warrior! So no, I'm pretty sure manifesting lvls do not count for powers, or points (or any other manifesting class in general). That I am quite sure on (my DM would throw a fit if that were true).


My point is that I don't know what restrictions on ardents' powers are since they have no power level distinctions.

You aren't listening.

I'll repeat:
A Psion 1/Psi Warr 4 with Practiced Manifester (chose 1 by the way) for Psion has a Manifester level of 5 for Psion and 4 for Psi warr:

It doesn't give you additional powers known.

But an Ardent isn't limited by class level for choosing powers: he isn't only limited by what he can manifest (if you afford it, you can manifest)
You are semi-limited by manifester level (as that is the most you can spend on a single power).


An Ardent can choose any power level by still limited by manifester/power cost.
He can't choose more than he can afford.
If he can afford more than he can choose more (obvious).

If you have manifester 6 and Earth power: you are only spending 6 power points.
Thus, you could have chosen a 7tth level power that level (they only cost 6 for a Earth power using ardent).
That is rules as Written.

To re-write that in math:
1+4=5.
A Psion 5/Ardent 1 (taking Practiced Manifester for Ardent) has a Manifester 5 for Psion but 5 for Ardent too.
This means he can now take 3rd level powers (at 1st class level of Ardent).
Ardent are only restricted by what they manifest not Powers Known limited like a Psion.

 

[irdeggman]

Ah so ardent lvl= point cap on what power you can use. Strange that they didn't mention that in the description. That would make it more balanced then, but still a very good dip class (hustle at lvl 1 is just too good).

Because all psionic powers work that way. You cannot spend more pp to manifest a power than the level of the psionic class you are manifesting it with.

From the SRD

MANIFESTER LEVEL
The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level. A power that can be augmented for additional effect is also limited by your manifester level (you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level). See Augment under Descriptive Text, below.

You can manifest a power at a lower manifester level than normal, but the manifester level must be high enough for you to manifest the power in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same manifester level.

In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your manifester level, this adjustment applies not only to all effects based on manifester level (such as range, duration, and augmentation potential) but also to your manifester level check to overcome your target’s power resistance and to the manifester level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

As far as the practiced manifester feat goes - Starbuck II is right. Read the description of the feat.

Your manifester level for the chosen manifesting class increases by four. This benefit can't increase your manifester level higher than your Hit Dice.

 

[irdeggman]

But an Ardent isn't limited by class level for choosing powers: he isn't only limited by what he can manifest (if you afford it, you can manifest)
You are semi-limited by manifester level (as that is the most you can spend on a single power).

I think if I've read it correctly the limit is still only to choose from the powers on the mantle list and then you still have to have primary and secondary mantles and "balance" them out. But other than that you should be able to choose anything that has a pp cost no higher than your "adjusted" ardent level (I agree using practiced manifester should help on this one if multiclassing). Assuming that you have an adequate wisdoms score to manifest the power too (that one is also written in the class description as a limiting factor).