question on ardent choice of powers

[samb1230]

Because all psionic powers work that way. You cannot spend more pp to manifest a power than the level of the psionic class you are manifesting it with.

From the SRD

MANIFESTER LEVEL
The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level. A power that can be augmented for additional effect is also limited by your manifester level (you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level). See Augment under Descriptive Text, below.

You can manifest a power at a lower manifester level than normal, but the manifester level must be high enough for you to manifest the power in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same manifester level.

In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your manifester level, this adjustment applies not only to all effects based on manifester level (such as range, duration, and augmentation potential) but also to your manifester level check to overcome your target’s power resistance and to the manifester level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

As far as the practiced manifester feat goes - Starbuck II is right. Read the description of the feat.

Well most psionic classes are limited by the level of the power as well, but it appears that divine mind and ardent are only affected by PP. So I can get hustle right off the bat either way, i'm happy. Thanks for the clarification.

Starbucks II and you are not right on practiced manifester though. The feat specifically says it does not affect power points, or powers know. It only affects things like how much PP you can spend on augmenting powers, overcoming resistance, range etc. I don't think it extrapolates to powers to be known.

But in all honesty i hope you are right because that would make a mean ass semi-gastalt psion/ardent since psion gets all those bonus feats, but I'm just not convinced after rereading the feat in complete psionics.

 

[irdeggman]

Starbucks II and you are not right on practiced manifester though. The feat specifically says it does not affect power points, or powers know. It only affects things like how much PP you can spend on augmenting powers, overcoming resistance, range etc. I don't think it extrapolates to powers to be known.

Starbuck II's point was that practiced manifester changes the number of pp you can spend on a power.

You are correct it does not increase the number known (but that wasn't the question).

Since it appears that the ardent's ability to learn a power depends on how many pps he can spend on the power (and of course his wisdom score) then it definitely does have an affect on the the powers that an ardent can learn.


As far as psionic hustle goes - what mantle lists it?

What level is it listed on the mantle?

From what I've seen the powers in the mantle are listed in a similar format to domain spells and they include a "level".

 

[Starbuck_II]

Starbuck II's point was that practiced manifester changes the number of pp you can spend on a power.

You are correct it does not increase the number known (but that wasn't the question).

Since it appears that the ardent's ability to learn a power depends on how many pps he can spend on the power (and of course his wisdom score) then it definitely does have an affect on the the powers that an ardent can learn.


As far as psionic hustle goes - what mantle lists it?

What level is it listed on the mantle?

From what I've seen the powers in the mantle are listed in a similar format to domain spells and they include a "level".

Freedom Mantle has Psionic Hustle as a 2nd level mantle power.

 

[samb1230]

I broke down and asked my DM and it seems seems to make sense. Manifester level stack and you can only pick powers that are equal to it total manifesting class. So a psion3/ardent1 would have a total ML of 4 and this be able to pick and power in that mantle, once he takes another lvl in ardent. Praced manifester would be pointless for a person who multi classed in exclusivily psionic classes because all the ML stack. So ardent is a good way to get some powers earlier and access to higher level powers outside of your choosen disipline but something like ultrablast which needs 15 points would still need a TOTAL ML of 15.

A psi warrior4/ psion 4 would have a ML of 8 for both classes no matter what. If we had a psi warrior4/ psion4/ fighter4 and picked uppeacticed manifester, then he would have to pick which class would which psi lvl would get the increased potency, so only one psi class would manifest as a lvl12 while the job stays at 8 ML.

 

[Starbuck_II]

I broke down and asked my DM and it seems seems to make sense. Manifester level stack and you can only pick powers that are equal to it total manifesting class. So a psion3/ardent1 would have a total ML of 4 and this be able to pick and power in that mantle, once he takes another lvl in ardent. Praced manifester would be pointless for a person who multi classed in exclusivily psionic classes because all the ML stack. So ardent is a good way to get some powers earlier and access to higher level powers outside of your choosen disipline but something like ultrablast which needs 15 points would still need a TOTAL ML of 15.

A psi warrior4/ psion 4 would have a ML of 8 for both classes no matter what. If we had a psi warrior4/ psion4/ fighter4 and picked uppeacticed manifester, then he would have to pick which class would which psi lvl would get the increased potency, so only one psi class would manifest as a lvl12 while the job stays at 8 ML.

Your DM lets your manifester levels stack from different classes?

The whole idea for Practiced Manifester suggestion is because by RAW they don't.

You really should have mentioned all houserules before we suggested stuff.
But kudos.

 

[samb1230]

Your DM lets your manifester levels stack from different classes?

The whole idea for Practiced Manifester suggestion is because by RAW they don't.

You really should have mentioned all houserules before we suggested stuff.
But kudos.

Go reread XPH or SRD, it clearly states that ML is equal to the sum of all the psionic classes. It is not a house rule. Practiced manifester is to increase how powerful your powers are when you have a non-manifesting classes mixed in.

My DM is a lawyer and not the type to bend the rules. He even bans unearthed arcana. This just means that I can't take a high level power like ultrablast at a level lower than i normally could. If I took 15 levels in psion i could get ultrablast, or if i went psion 14/ardent 1. Both end up the same manifesting level, while dipping unto ardent would give me less power points in the long run (23 to be exact and that is without counting bonus from INT, and that is ALOT).

The only benefit dipping into ardent would that some powers that have power level greater than twice the power cost would be selected sooner, and that you could access powers that are normally prohibited to you, like a telepath able to make astral constructs (which is usually reserved for shapers). Its like a super charged expanded psionic knowlegde feat.

Psionic lion's charge is a lvl 3 power. Normally a psi warrior would need to be psi warrior7 to select it. but with a dip into ardent he can now pick it as early as lvl 3 (although he would not have the extra attacks to benefit for it). Huslte is a better example, as a level 2 power with a cost of 1 point, normally a psi warrior needs to be lvl 4 to have acess to it. But an ardent can get it right from the start. These benefits wane in the long run because a full psi warrior would have better BAB and higher lvl powers, while a full psion/wilder would have more points (of course both would have access to the spells desired as well).

It all balances out.

 

[samb1230]

When you really look at it a dip into ardent as a pure psionic character is only good if you wish to gain access to prohibited powers and even that costs you power points in the long run. This is mainly due to the fact that most psionic classes will get access to the desired power later or at the same time, but have more points to spend on them as well making them superior all around.

Although one clever way to bypass lose of points would be pick Mental might mantle with the feats tap mantle and don mantle as a psi warrior. Since Mental might adds 2 points to wisdom for the purposes of calculating bonus points to whatever class granted mental might. Since the mantle was granted by psiwarrior (via feats) you get more bonus points each level (psiwarrior uses wisdom as its main modifier). By lvl 20 you would have 10 more points that you should ha you gone full psiwarrior. But this still costs 2 feats just to make up for power point deficit.

Ardent is a better dip for mostly non-psionic characters that want particular powers. Like a rogue or fighter that wants to move/charge someone and do a full action. Then a dip into ardent for conflict (bonus feat: weapon focus) and picking up practiced manifester would allow for psionic lion charge by lvl 3, or a dip into freedom mantle (bonus feat: speed of thought) to get hustle and practiced manifester to get freedom of movement.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Go reread XPH or SRD, it clearly states that ML is equal to the sum of all the psionic classes. It is not a house rule. Practiced manifester is to increase how powerful your powers are when you have a non-manifesting classes mixed in.

Page 18 disagrees.
1st paragraph: it shows that manifester levels from different classes are seperate. Only power points stack.

Where does it state it is the sum?
I found where it is equal to "your psionic class level" refering to each class separetely (page 54, under heading Manifester level), but never classes used.
You have to make a leap to assume class = classes. one is singular/ another plural.

So this is what I mean by: you used a houserule. Because nothing says what you said unless you can provide a source/page.

 

[irdeggman]

Go reread XPH or SRD, it clearly states that ML is equal to the sum of all the psionic classes. It is not a house rule. Practiced manifester is to increase how powerful your powers are when you have a non-manifesting classes mixed in.

Starbuck II has it right.


Pg 18 XPH

While you maintain a single reserve of power points from your class, race, and feat selections, you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know. For example, a 10th-level psion/2nd-level psychic warrior can spend up to 10 points when manifesting a psion power, but only 2 points when manifesting a psychic warrior power.

Psionic lion's charge is a lvl 3 power. Normally a psi warrior would need to be psi warrior7 to select it. but with a dip into ardent he can now pick it as early as lvl 3 (although he would not have the extra attacks to benefit for it). Huslte is a better example, as a level 2 power with a cost of 1 point, normally a psi warrior needs to be lvl 4 to have acess to it. But an ardent can get it right from the start. These benefits wane in the long run because a full psi warrior would have better BAB and higher lvl powers, while a full psion/wilder would have more points (of course both would have access to the spells desired as well).

I don’t know where you are getting hustle for 1 pp. It is a 2nd level power on the Freedom Mantle which means that it costs 3 pp to manifest.

I think that you are reading how an ardent gains his powers as well as the way they are laid out on the mantle tables incorrectly. The number next to the power on the mantle tables is the level of the power for that mantle – it is laid out exactly like domain spells are.

Pg 7 of CP under Powers Known lays out how an ardent learns his powers.

An ardent begins play knowing two of the first powers available to her based on her choice of mantles. Each mantle features at least one power or ability with a cost of 1 power point. An ardent selects two of these powers from her two mantles at 1st level.

. . . . For example, an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest; she cannot learn a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost.

An ardent knows at most 6 mantles, 2 primary and 4 secondary. She can never know more powers from secondary mantles than either of her primary ones. She can switch a secondary and primary mantle at 8th and 15th levels though.

 

[samb1230]

Well ardent looks totally underpowered now that I have a better understanding of psionic game mechanics. Even with the more relaxed rules that my DM set it still sucks. Requiring PCs to use the few feats they get just even out their power selection AND lose points seems way too restrictive.

But if all psionic classes have there own ML then what of PrC? Are all the powers I use going to be gimp since I started a new manifesting class?

I currently have a psi warrior 7/ elocator 6 in my campaign and I have been counting him as lvl 13 ML. If my elocator was just ML=6 then what is the point of ever picking higher level powers when, by the law of ML> points spent I can never use them? I highly doubt WotC meant for me to only pick lvl 2 powers when they said "+1 to existing manifester class".