Questionable morals - PC's killing children

I'd rule that this was a Neutral act.

It was pragmatic, after all; nobody's going to argue the fact that, after seeing thier parents killed by an Elf and his friends, that these hobgoblins are going to be "nice" to other races for the rest of thier lives.

I don't think it was a Good act. Killing the defenseless, and all that.

I wonder what Elves think of children of the short-lived races. To an Elf, they are going to be grown-up killing machines in no time at all. They may be defenseless now, but in a few short years they are going to be going to war.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

This is my personal view on it. This act is a neutral act--definitely on the darker end of the scale, mind you, and a character who's in the habit of pulling these sort of acts might be entering the neighborhood of an alignment change very soon...

(P.S. Game Control--what if you patron diety is a neutral god that really HATES hobgoblins...?)

(P.P.S. And no, a character of mine wouldn't have killed them either...)
 
Last edited:

Actually, Rhialto, there is something in the core rules which sets animals and non-sentient life forms in a different moral category than sentient life.

In the PHB, pg 88, it states that animals are incapable of moral action. These creatures cannot take a position on morality at all, and that does make them different from the sentient humanoids, which can.

This does not fully decide the question of under what circumstances killing them is or is not evil in the game. However, it makes Aaron's position far less arbitrary than you make it out. The core rules say that non-sentients hold a different place in the moral specturm.
 

Greetings!

Lela! Nice to hear from you! It's been a while since I have seen you! Elementary School, eh? Keep up the good work! Thanks, I'm not a politician! I'm glad that I made you think! I have been told by more than one friend that I should attend Law School though!:)

Well, as for killing the Druid character, there may in fact be other details as to why the character is holding back, not fighting, and so on. I however, wasn't supplied with such information that explained to the contrary. Thus, from what I read, it seemed like a cowardly character.

Keep in mind, friends, that there can be very different motivations for a *character*, as opposed to a *player*. I'm never in favour of tolerating rude and obnoxious players that desire to ruin another player's fun gaming in the campaign. Please, understand that, ok!:)

Now, having said that, the folks that I usually game with currently, and in the past, have tended to be all active duty Marines, or veterans of other branches of the military. In addition, the civilians that aren't veterans have been hanging around with the rest of us for so long that the culture has rubbed off on 'em.:) Thus, they are very up-front in their attitudes towards any character that displays cowardice, treason, or thievery and sliminess in general. Such characters--played by players who willingly choose to play them in such manner--are under no illusions about the ever-present danger their character is in, in such circumstances, should such be discovered or cowardly or suspicious behavior observed. Judgement by one's comrades while in the field is often rough, quick, and fatal.

Of course, the same crew is fanatically loyal to someone that they believe to be honorable, loyal, and an all-around hard-charger.*

*HARD-CHARGER--Someone who is Gung-Ho, motivated, enthusiastic, encouraging, disciplined, and otherwise self-sacrificing. Someone who puts the team above his own personal safety, or gain usually regardless of the circumstances.

Continuing, if such a character seemed cowardly on an odd occurance, like many have said, the character would probably be warned to get with the program, or get lost. Failing that, the cowardly character would be deep-sixed fast. If the character seemed to develop a pattern, as I assumed from the reading, well, someone in the group my just say enough is enough, and execute the character in some dramatic manner. This would probably be done in a serious, righteous attitude, but pointedly ruthless and tongue-in-cheek for the character being executed. After all, they'd say, we warned you about being a coward on us. and so on. It would be over quick, and as I said, the *player* would be under no illusions about what type of behavior or attitudes to beware of. Consistent cowardice, or *Malingering* as we sometimes call it, just isn't looked upon with tolerance, or mercy.

As for the Hobgoblin "children"--as Elder Basilisk mentioned, if such creatures are free moral agents, then they should be accorded all rights and priviledges that Humans or any other "sentient" race is accorded. I explained why I didn't think that they merited "Free moral agency" and why I didn't think that Hobgoblins were morally equivalent with Humans.

Furthermore, this is something that I don't quite understand. Some DM's insist that the player-characters embrace some all-tolerant, all-merciful behavior in the wilderness, under combat conditions, towards creatures that are widely known--to be vicious, evil, savage monsters.

The strange thing is, at least by implication from the rules and such, unless one's campaign is *very* different, the towns and cities that the player-characters come from, themselves, would never en masse, treat such savage evil humanoids with the honey-sweet concern that some insist on. No, the town or city would annihilate the humanoids before they got within a hundred feet of the city walls. Anything that survived the ballista, catapult, and archer fire, would be swiftly trampled and hacked by a squad of armoured horsemen. There would be in all probability, no negotiations, to hand-wringing, no hesitation. The city or town would probably never exert such concern as to organize elaborate parleys so as to discern the alignment of the evil humanoids, and go through a bunch of effort to determine what they want, what the humanoids feel, or anything else. On occasion, of course, some parley might take place. But the vast majority of the time?--It would be routine I'm sure to annihilate them as wicked raiders before they so much as said hello.

Should the creatures somehow infiltrate the city in disguise, and reveal themselves somehow, well, the hue and cry would be swift, and if the Watch didn't cut them down first, the townspeople themselves would probably get a rope and hang 'em high! And even if the evil humanoids protested their innocence, it seems that most people would assume they were lying, or using magic to somehow trick the humans, or defeat their Good magic by some foul and cunning sorcery or witchcraft. Either way, any humanoids caught in a city would certainly not be afforded any such compassion and mercy. Far from it! They would, if they survived somehow avoiding hanging, or being burned at the stake, or being cut down where they stood in the street, they would probably be hauled off in chains to some dark dungeon and tortured to learn all that they know. They would be stretched on the wrack, burned with glowing pokers, their flesh torn by the pinchers, and their skin flayed from their back by the scourge, encouraging them to tell all that they knew.:)

That is what I see as being the standard response and treatment to such vicious creatures found near or within the walls of a civilized city or town. I just don't see the population at large, the terrified masses, or the suspicious, vengeful authorities, as being that concerned with the "rights" or "feelings" of such evil humanoids as many DM's seem to expect the player-characters to demonstrate.:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

Ok, fine, let's bring up this point.

You spare the children, now what? Do you let them starve to death in a few weeks? Do you let them die due to lack of shelter? Do you let them be wiped out by the first wolf they run across? (since they are helpless, by your definition. No one in that group fights in the face of danger, they cower. Any one, single person could wipe out all of them with little trouble.) I mean, all of those all come to the same end, they all die.

That said, is just walking away from the hobgoblin children evil? If you said that killing the children was evil, then isn't just letting nature kill them just as evil? If not, I would like a justification.

Ok, now what would be the ideal "good" situation? Leaving them alone is just as good as killing them, so that's more evil than good (depending on what you answered above). Ok, so let's say you give them some way for them to live on their own. Oops, you just committed evil by helping an evil race (at least half of those children are evil, most likely 80-95%). In 5-10 years, they will just be another roving hobgoblin warband, raping, pillaging, and murdering. Definately not good.

All right, you went all out. You bought a few acres of land in a secluded wilderness, you give them a means to get their own food, you shelter them. You have spend thousands of gold to provide for the welfare of these predominately evil children. You have spent years of game time teaching them the morals of good, and what good does (besides kill their parents). You might convert, oh, say half of the evil ones (not unrealistic, since they are almost gaurenteed to have been taught the ways of evil since the day they were born). What do you do with the other (roughly 40-50%, but that's very roughtly) hobgoblins that stick to their evil ways? Kill them?

Ok, you've spent 10 years of game time babying the hobgoblin kids. You've spent the past decade teaching the ways of good to them. You have weeded the good from the bad, killing or driving out (evil, btw) the evil hobgoblins. You send your babies out into the real world, and due to natural intuition, are shot on sight in almost all civilized lands.

So, what's the ideal 'good' situation? As far as I can tell, the truely "good" option is to spent thousands of gp on them, years and years of game time, and enough land to shelter them and keep them isolated. Other than that, it's basically a catch 22.
 

Well, we have just finished our session. I spoke to the CN elf's player, asking him what his motivation was for killing the children. His response was "because they were evil". Thus, I said ok, no problem. They got into a situation where there were prisoners of various races (including humans). They CN elf proceeded to kill the orcs, goblins, kobolds and bugbear that were chained to the wall and defenseless. I asked him the reason, and again it was "because they are evil". I said that it was a pretty good act, doing that, and he agreed that it was for the good of the land. Notice I said he didn't kill the humans. He set them free. They turned out to be part of a sect of Blighters (from MotW) that had been terrorizing the local community. They won't find this out until next week however. The druid player (who couldn't be there until late and came just as we were finishing) showed up with his new character: a lawful good ranger. I can see these two players are going to be at each others throats. I also spoke to the elf player and told him that he should change his alignment to chaotic good, as that was the way he was playing. He said he would think about it.

Well, thats it for now!!! Advice on how to handle the situation next week (between the elf and the ranger) would be GREATLY appreciated.
 

Ah, let's see here... on what pages can I find these parts of the argument:

Nature v. Nurture

Absolute Morality v. Relative Morality

Well, as a DM who likes to fiddle with things, I pretty much take the fashionable Environmental Determinism angle on pretty much everything that's not Undead or an Outsider... In my mind, all sentient/sapient (I'm not sure which is correct anymore), mortal beings from the Prime Material plane are born True Neutral. It is not racial programming, or divine mutation, or whatever, that makes them "evil," it is the environment that they grow up in that makes them "evil."

While I personally believe that morality, at this stage in our development, either exists out of our comprehension, or does not exist at all. The D&D system pretty much states that there are two axises: Good-Evil, and Order-Chaos. So, at that point, I have to state that some things are "good" while others are "evil."

At this point, I must misquote Immanuel Kant and say that "one must be able to will this action as universal law, outside of circumstance, for all rational beings." Therefore, to be able to say that killing the children of an enemy can be done as a universal law of all rational beings if you want to say that doing so is a good action.

At this point, it gets muddy. So if I have to will an action as a universal law of all rational beings in order to make it a virtuous action, do I have to do the same for an evil action? Of course, the process instead being that one should never do (that action) regardless of situation.

Even muddier now... So there are Virtuous, or Good, actions; Nefarious, or Evil, actions; and Amoral, or Neutral, actions.

The trouble is that most, if not all, actions can be called amoral actions... neither good nor evil.

So, it seems to me that this sort of thing is best handled in such a way that it rests in the hands of the DM. Regardless of your own personal beliefs, you should rely on the DM to make the decision and as long as future rulings are consistent, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I dunno, I thought it might be more helpful to attempt to discuss this sort of thing rather than debate the semantics of what makes a sentient creature, or how the books don't say that animals don't have a soul... :rolleyes:
 

Okay here, I'm going to describe to you what hobgoblin "children" look like to me:
.
.
.
All are illegitimate offspring of the semi-prostitute/concubine females with warlike hobgoblin men who rape and plunder everything weaker than them. At birth, the offspring are scanned by clerics with detect good and detect chaos , taken from the mother and shoved into iron cages deep within the bowels of the hobgoblin's caves.

From there, they are force fed gruel, miscellaneous body parts and offal by malicious taskmasters. They are constantly tortured with sticks and hot iron brands. Each are given sharp implements such as daggers and needles, with which they may stab those offspring weaker than they and cannibalize them.

After a few weeks, they are let out of their cages for drill instruction. Each is forced to stand. Those who do not stand are beaten severely. They are taught the basics of weapon use. Those that do not understand are beaten severely. Each are taught how to march. Those that do not understand are beaten severely. If the offspring die, so be it.

Every night, they are forced back to their cages. Every day is strict training, legalized torture and vicious cruelty. Organized melees are common. None are ever healed and some die. The offspring are indoctrinated in the basics of the hobgoblin language, propaganda, religion, and caste system. The beliefs of racial superiority, might-makes-right and strict discipline are force-fed with torture and brainwashing techniques developed over centuries by previous hobgoblin fanatics.

This continues for about ten years at which point the offspring are assigned duties within the caste system of the hobgoblins. This is where their real training begins.
.
.
.
So you see, my definition of hobgoblin offspring does not coincide with the word "children". To have whimpering, whining hobgoblins in my campaign is such a contradiction that I cannot even begin to fathom.

Those hobgoblin offspring would have been armed to the teeth and marched against the party. The extremely young would have stabbed them with knives and bitten like rabid dogs.
.
.
.
I do not believe in either Nature or Nuture. I believe in Nature and Nuture. Hobgoblins are both predisposed to evil and taught to be evil.

Sure, you could take a hobgoblin from birth and teach it how to be good in all sorts of ways, and this will increase the chances of it being good. I disagree that it would have the same chances as a human because of inherent predisposition.
.
.
.
As per defenseless humanoids: IMO, it is not Good to attack unless attacked first.

If the creatures are defenseless because they already attacked the PCs or other good NPCs, then the PCs are justified in killing them.

(Hence why hobgoblin offspring are not evil to kill.)

If the creatures are defenseless and have not specifically attacked either the PCs or other good PCs, then the PCs are not justified in killing them.

"They got into a situation where there were prisoners of various races (including humans). They CN elf proceeded to kill the orcs, goblins, kobolds and bugbear that were chained to the wall and defenseless." ---Eternal Knight


Unless those specific orcs, goblins, kobolds and the bugbear had attacked the PCs, Good NPCs, belonged to an organization that promoted killing Good people, or commited some other atrocity that the PCs knew about, then you are perfectly within your rights to make the CN as evil as the come.
 
Last edited:

Roger Moore wrote an article about paladins killing orc babies and how it could be justified if there were no alternatives. As a DM or PC, I'd ask for atonement for the act if it were a paladin or good cleric; them's the breaks if you're playing such a character. Most other good characters would have wracked consciences. Neutral characters end up looking seedy. Evil characters get their alignments reinforced.

The second act is pretty clearly evil, though. Killing a character for not pulling their weight isn't morally justifiable outside of the military, and questionable even then. It's also gaming table bully tactics, and unless justified to the extreme by in-character reasons, I believe that it should be punished for metagame reasons as well. The disharmony wrought by killing other PCs was why the Assassin class was removed from AD&D in 2nd ed.

That's two strikes, and the CN character is looking decidedly CN(E) to me. One more strike and he'll fall fully into CE in my eyes, unless he does some impressive to prove otherwise.
 

I love this kind of thread, and I'm glad that it's still going.

I think the differences between the two sides in this debate are largely based on styles of play. Clearly, Shark and the others who favor killing the hobgoblin children go for a more gritty, dark, realistic style of play. All of their arguments, especially the long-term consequences of leaving the children alive, are spot on. I doubt EK's dilemna would even have arisen in their campaigns, since the "children" would have behaved very differently when the PCs encountered them.

I'm more on the other side. I prefer a more heroic fantasy model of play, with the PCs being predominantly "good" and not doing things that would (admittedly in a 21st century perspective) be considered "evil". Slaughtering defenseless enemies (whether or not they could technically be considered "innocent") and killing members of your own party just aren't the sort of things I want to have in my game.

Notice that I put a lot of words in quotes above (normally, I hate it when writers do that, but I had a reason). A lot of our conclusions about this issue, I expect, would depend on how we would define the various terms in our campaign.

I've played in gritty worlds, and they can be fun. I just take more pleasure in a more escapist fantasy. Part of the genius of the game, IMO, is that it can encapsulate these different styles. I agree that it should be clear from the begining of a campaign what style the DM is cultivating in his/her world.

P.S. EK, nice twist with the human prisoners being the real bad guys. Should be interesting to see how the party reacts (perhaps a brief story hour?)
 

Remove ads

Top