Questions about bonus types and stacking

[Tharak]

Its become apparant that I don't understand bonus types as well as I thought I did.

When something says it "grants an enhancement bonus to natural armour" (or armour), is that bonus an enhancement bonus or a natural armour bonus for the purposes of determining what can stack with it? I had always assumed that they were enhancement bonuses, and that if you had an amulet of natural armour (enhancement bonus to natural armour), it would stack with anything listed as +X natural armour bonus (as in a gnoll listed with a +1 natural armour bonus).

I also wanted to know(on a bit of a tangent) what bonuses apply to touch attacks. The SRD specifically excludes armour and natural armour bonuses, and specifically includes size, dex and deflection bonuses. Since it says "all other modifiers including" the aforementioned, does that mean that enhancement, competence, luck, moral, etc, bonuses ARE included in your touch AC?

 

[3d6]

An "enhancement bonus to your natural armor bonus" increases your natural armor bonus.

For example, a creature with an amulet of natural armor +2 and natural armor +1 would have a total natural armor bonus of +3.

Re: the second question; yes, that is correct.

 

[Tharak]

So it is as I thought then that an enhancement bonus to natural armour is NOT the same as a natural armour bonus - someone (well - a few someones) were trying to tell me otherwise..thanks!

Also - correct me if I'm wrong here..

Since a bonus "type" doesn't change depending on its target, an enhancement bonus to natural armour is still (at its base) an enhancement bonus, no? If it IS, then shouldn't it be applied to touch AC? Enhancment bounses are not excluded from touch AC - only Natural armor, armor and shield bonuses - since the enhancement bonus only affects those things, but doesn't BECOME that type of bonus, shouldn't it count by the letter of the rules?

 

[3d6]

The enhancement bonus isn't a bonus to AC. It is a bonus to another bonus. Because it is not applied to AC at all, it doesn't help with touch AC.

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Since a bonus "type" doesn't change depending on its target, an enhancement bonus to natural armour is still (at its base) an enhancement bonus, no? If it IS, then shouldn't it be applied to touch AC? Enhancment bounses are not excluded from touch AC - only Natural armor, armor and shield bonuses - since the enhancement bonus only affects those things, but doesn't BECOME that type of bonus, shouldn't it count by the letter of the rules?

3d6 has it right. The enhancement bonus is applied to the natural armor bonus, armor bonus, or shield bonus to AC. Since those bonuses to AC are discounted against touch attacks, so too are any enhancement bonuses to them.

A suit of +1 leather armor doesn't provide a +2 armor bonus to AC plus a +1 enhancement bonus to AC; it just provides a +3 armor bonus to AC. And armor bonuses to AC don't count against touch attacks, so...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The wording is still a bit confusing in 3.5. My guess is that in 4.0 they do away with the concept of a "natural armor bonus" entirely, and just list it as "natural armor." So a gnoll would have Natural Armor of 1, and could gain an enhancement bonus to its natural armor through magic.

As it stands, though, yes, critters gain a natural armor bonus to their AC. And then they can gain an enhancement bonus to their natural armor bonus, which is then added altogether to their AC.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Since a bonus "type" doesn't change depending on its target, an enhancement bonus to natural armour is still (at its base) an enhancement bonus, no? If it IS, then shouldn't it be applied to touch AC? Enhancment bounses are not excluded from touch AC - only Natural armor, armor and shield bonuses - since the enhancement bonus only affects those things, but doesn't BECOME that type of bonus, shouldn't it count by the letter of the rules?

There's no such thing as an "enhancement bonus to AC". All that an enhancement bonus does is improve another bonus- in this case, it makes your Natural Armor higher. A touch attack includes all modifiers to AC except armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses (including any enhancements to them).

 

[3d6]

There's no such thing as an "enhancement bonus to AC". All that an enhancement bonus does is improve another bonus- in this case, it makes your Natural Armor higher. A touch attack includes all modifiers to AC except armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses (including any enhancements to them).

That's debatable. There are a lot of references in the DMG to magic armor and shields providing an enhancement bonus to AC. For example, rhino hide armor, "in addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a -1 armor check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a mounted charge."

 

[Artoomis]

That's debatable. There are a lot of references in the DMG to magic armor and shields providing an enhancement bonus to AC. For example, rhino hide armor, "in addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC, it has a -1 armor check penalty and deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on any successful charge attack made by the wearer, including a mounted charge."

Well, the bottom line is that any enhancement bonuses only enhance the underlying bonus and are not really a bonus in and of themselves, except they, of course, do not stack with other enhancement bonuses for the same thing.

Also, the Rhino Hide armor quote was taken out of context, it's, "This +2 hide armor is made from rhinoceros hide. In addition to granting a +2 enhancement bonus to AC..." This is clearly refering to the +2 enhancement bonus to armor and not some new category of "enhancement bonus" that applies to AC directy and not the the armor itself.

For example:

1. A +2 enhancement bonuses to armor and a +3 enhancement bonus to armor do not stack with each other, but, together, give a +3 enhancement bonus to armor. You might get both from, perhaps a spell as well as the properties of the magic armor you are wearing.

2. A touch attack ignores not only your armor bonus but also any enhancement bonuses to armor because they are improving the armor bonus - not your AC directly as as some sort of their own category of bonus like luck, sacred, etc.

 

[Tharak]

Ahh...I got it now...thanks everyone!