Questions about Lion Extraordinary Abilities

[DrSpunj]

Last week I summoned a Celestial Lion for a combat against some evil dog-creatures, including a Winter Wolf (I think). I was confused starting the first combat round as to what to do with this creature. The MM & SRD lists the following relevant info:

Attacks: 2 claws +7 melee, bite +2 melee
Damage: Claw 1d4+5, bite 1d8+2

Special Attacks:
Pounce (Ex): If a lion leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat, it can make a full attack even if it has already taken a move action.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the lion must hit with its bite attack. If it gets a hold, it can rake.

Rake (Ex): A lion that gets a hold can make two rake attacks (+7 melee) with its hind legs for 1d4+2 damage each. If the lion pounces on an opponent, it can also rake.

1) I couldn't find any info in the rest of the Monster Manual then nor the SRD tonite on how a Pounce works. Do you make a Jump roll? Just say you're Pouncing? Make a melee touch attack? How does this work?

2) If you successfully Pounce you still get a full attack action that allows you to Rake. Are the Rake attacks instead of or in addition to the 2 Claw and Bite attacks the Lion normally gets? I want to say in addition to because the Rake attacks do less damage than the 2 Claw attacks normally allowed, but 5 attacks in one round seems a bit much for a CR 3 creature.

3) Please help me through a typical full attack action as I'm not sure which of the following is the real case. Assuming you're next to your foe you get the 3 attacks listed as above.
Option A - If the Bite hits you get to make an opposed Grapple check because of Improved Grab which, if successful, then allows you to do an additional two Rake attacks for a total of 5 attacks this round.
Option B - If the Bite hits you get to make an opposed Grapple check because of Improved Grab, if successful you and your foe are considered Grappling. Next round you may continue the Grapple, and if successful, do automatic Bite damage plus two Rake attacks. Do you still get your 2 primary Claw attacks?!?
Option C - Something totally different because I'm missing the big picture.

Right now I'm voting C

Sorry about my lack of clarity here but I'm really confused as to how these 3 Extraordinary abilities work with each other. I've read the section on Improved Grab in the MM on pg. 9 (and understand you can't use it unless your opponent is at least one size smaller, but the Lion is large and my DM said the dogs were medium-sized) but can't find any other material on Pounce or Rake.

Please help!

 

[Darkness]

1) I couldn't find any info in the rest of the Monster Manual then nor the SRD tonite on how a Pounce works. Do you make a Jump roll? Just say you're Pouncing? Make a melee touch attack? How does this work?

I'd require the lion to make a Charge or a Partial Charge, judging from the description ("leaps upon a foe," "taken a move action").

2) If you successfully Pounce you still get a full attack action that allows you to Rake. Are the Rake attacks instead of or in addition to the 2 Claw and Bite attacks the Lion normally gets? I want to say in addition to because the Rake attacks do less damage than the 2 Claw attacks normally allowed, but 5 attacks in one round seems a bit much for a CR 3 creature.

Yes, the rakes are in addition to the normal attacks. Ever got grabbed by a cat? They first grab you with their front paws and bite you, and when they have you, they rake with their rear paws.

3) Please help me through a typical full attack action as I'm not sure which of the following is the real case. Assuming you're next to your foe you get the 3 attacks listed as above.
Option A - If the Bite hits you get to make an opposed Grapple check because of Improved Grab which, if successful, then allows you to do an additional two Rake attacks for a total of 5 attacks this round.
Option B - If the Bite hits you get to make an opposed Grapple check because of Improved Grab, if successful you and your foe are considered Grappling. Next round you may continue the Grapple, and if successful, do automatic Bite damage plus two Rake attacks. Do you still get your 2 primary Claw attacks?!?

I'd say no to the primary claw attacks; the description of Improved Grapple (MM, p.9) mentions that a creature using Improved Grab "can even move," but it doesn't say anything about using additional attacks.

 

[DrSpunj]

Well...

I'd require the lion to make a Charge or a Partial Charge, judging from the description ("leaps upon a foe," "taken a move action").

While this makes sense would you allow them to automatically successfully Pounce? For color it doesn't make a difference, but for mechanics a successful Pounce allows 2 additional Rake attacks with a pretty good chance of success (+7) or at least as good as its primary Claw attacks.

Yes, the rakes are in addition to the normal attacks. Ever got grabbed by a cat? They first grab you with their front paws and bite you, and when they have you, they rake with their rear paws.

This makes sense, thanks.

I'd say no to the primary claw attacks; the description of Improved Grapple (MM, p.9) mentions that a creature using Improved Grab "can even move," but it doesn't say anything about using additional attacks.

I just reread that whole section, and I certainly could be wrong, but I believe the entire last paragraph (part of which you quoted) is only relevant if the creature chooses to simply Hold their foe (with a -20 to grapple checks) rather than Grapple normally with them, as indicated at the end of the first paragraph. The second paragraph describes special "Hold damage" and then the third talks about the special circumstances of a creature Holding someone but not actually Grappling with them so the Grapple consequences don't apply.

Thanks for the comments. Any other thoughts?

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

I would run it like your Option A.

My first thought was that rake would be run just like a monster with constriction, but on further review I don't see that that is necessarily the case.

With regards to pounce, I would just require the lion to "leap upon" his victim. Logically, this would require him being higher up than the target, the target being prone, or the lion getting a good run (charge) for the leap.

For the number of attacks allowed when grappling, I believe that you are to use the BAB of the monster (without strength etc.) to determine the number of attacks it can do in one round once if is grappling. If it uses these to make grappling checks, then each successful check does unarmed damage (which is standard claw or bite damage for a lion I suppose). Instead, it can just use any light weapon (like a claw or bite) to make a plain old melee attack (though I think the number of attacks is still limited by it's BAB because it is grappling).

If you treated the Rake like constriction, a successful grapple check later on would include raking damage (but I don't really see it working that way).

So, is that non-committal enough? I just don't have the energy to research all the grapple rules (again) and I can't find my summary sheet. But this is my best recollection, and how I would rule it on a spur-of-the-moment situation. Maybe it can serve as a base for others to correct at least.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Judging by the more fleshed-out descriptions of the "pounce" ability in PrCs with this ability (yes, they exist), that's not quite how Pounce works.

Think of the "leaps upon a foe" bit as flavor text. Essentially, all the pounce ability means is that the lion gets a full attack on the first round of combat EVEN IF it takes a move action first. The ability clearly works BEST with a charge, but I wouldn't say a charge is necessary.

 

[DrSpunj]

Judging by the more fleshed-out descriptions of the "pounce" ability in PrCs with this ability (yes, they exist), that's not quite how Pounce works.

Think of the "leaps upon a foe" bit as flavor text. Essentially, all the pounce ability means is that the lion gets a full attack on the first round of combat EVEN IF it takes a move action first. The ability clearly works BEST with a charge, but I wouldn't say a charge is necessary.

I'll have to go and look at some of those Pounce descriptions in the Prestige Classes (OA Lion something-or-other, right?) but the Rake ability seems REALLY powerful since it also activates on a Pounce. Interpreted this way a Lion gets to move his base speed every round, do a Full Attack action because of Pounce every round (for 3 attacks), and then Rake kicks in and he gets an additional 2 attacks (5 total) every round. I'm pretty sure my DM isn't going to allow. I'm positive I wouldn't!

I'm also still troubled by the first part of Pounce: "IF a lion leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat...". That "If" implies to me that it's not an automatic success, and truthfully, thinking about the situation IRL that makes sense. Prey jump about and try to escape, there's nothing that says it should be automatic. While making a charge would make some sense for a running leap, I don't think it should be the only requirement (or if it should even be one).

Thanks for the comments, please keep them coming as this still isn't at all clear to me.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

I think the if is there because the lion has to move first.

If you were to sneak up on the lion, I wouldn't let it pounce on you.

Think about it in RL. A lion running at you and jumping on you SHOULD get to attack with it's bite and all 4 claws.

The animals in the MM are weak anough as it is, don't nerf them anymore. A lion should be quite a handful and capable of killing more than just low-level adventureres. A celestial lion should be something legends are made of.

--Animalistic Spikey

 

[Christian]

I'll have to go and look at some of those Pounce descriptions in the Prestige Classes (OA Lion something-or-other, right?) but the Rake ability seems REALLY powerful since it also activates on a Pounce. Interpreted this way a Lion gets to move his base speed every round, do a Full Attack action because of Pounce every round (for 3 attacks), and then Rake kicks in and he gets an additional 2 attacks (5 total) every round.

Well, no ...

Pounce (Ex): If a lion leaps upon a foe during the first round of combat, it can make a full attack even if it has already taken a move action.

This is a once-per-combat thing. If you want to nerf it a little, you could require that the target be flat-footed, viz. the pounce can only happen during a surprise round or in the first regular round where the lion (etc.) has won initiative.

In a test fight I ran between a dire tiger and a T-Rex, both maximally advanced, I found that a good strategy for the tiger was hide, pounce, run away. Lather, rinse repeat. (Actually, the T-Rex ate him anyway-but it prevented what would have been a serious massacre ...)

 

[CullAfulMoshuN]

The way I would run this is:

For the lion to pounce it would have to use a charge attack (picture the nature shows when the lion breaks its cover and runs the prey down). Using its pounce ability though it is allowed to make all 5 attacks in the first round including rake. If the bite attack hits, the improved grab kicks in and the lion and opponent make opposed grapple checks to see if the lion successfully maintains the grapple or the opponent escapes its grasp.

If you read P.137 of the PHB on grappling rules, under Other Grappling Options, it says you can attack with a light weapon while grappling, but not two weapons as you need atleast one hand to maintain the grapple. Since natural weapons are considered light the lion can use its natural attacks while grappling, including its rake attack, but since the improved grab is made with the bite attack I would guess that it cannot use its bite attack. So each round the grapple is maintained the lion would get 2 claw and 2 rake attacks.

If the lion chooses to take the -20 on its grapple check, then only the part that started the grapple is occupied (its mouth) and it can move with its victim (drag with opposed strength checks), and/or attack other threatening opponents with its claw attacks, but can still only use the rake attacks on the grappled opponent.

 

[DrSpunj]

Hmm...

this is starting to make some sense. Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the last couple posts pointing out the "in the first round of combat" (which I wasn't sure applied to the whole combat or just the first interaction with each foe when fighting multiple foes) and the step-by-step from Cull.

I'm still not sold on how Pounce mechanically applies as simply making a Charge action on the first combat round seems pretty basic to get 2 extra attacks, but your comments on the Grapple make a lot of sense.

Any other thoughts?