Quick question: empower rods

[Menexenus]

Hi. My party's wizard wants to use a *Lesser* Empower Rod to empower a *Maximized* Scorching Ray. I understand that it is OK to empower a maximized spell, and I know the rules for doing it. What I'm not sure about is whether the Maximized Scorching Ray counts as a 1st-3rd level spell for the purposes of the Lesser Empower Rod.

Some of the wording regarding Metamagic Rods talks about spell *slots* and some of it talks about spell *levels*, so I wasn't sure. If you know the answer to this question, please respond. Thanks in advance.

 

[Rackhir]

Hi. My party's wizard wants to use a *Lesser* Empower Rod to empower a *Maximized* Scorching Ray. I understand that it is OK to empower a maximized spell, and I know the rules for doing it. What I'm not sure about is whether the Maximized Scorching Ray counts as a 1st-3rd level spell for the purposes of the Lesser Empower Rod.

Some of the wording regarding Metamagic Rods talks about spell *slots* and some of it talks about spell *levels*, so I wasn't sure. If you know the answer to this question, please respond. Thanks in advance.

I would have to say no. The rod has to match the level of the maximized spell. Since if you were doing it in a spell slot, that's what you'd be adding the metamagic adjustment for empowering it to.

However, this does mean potentially you could "swap" things around and get a rod of maximize and use that on an empowered scorching ray.

BTW, most people miss this part, but a maximized-empowered scorching ray isn't going to be doing 1.5 x (4x6), but 2d6 + (4x6). Because the empowering is acting on on the "variable numeric effects", ie. the 4d6 x 1.5 = 6d6. This is spelled out in the Maximized MM Feat description.

"An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result."

 

[krupintupple]

assuming the maximized aspect of the metamagic is from a feat possessed by the caster in question, only that aspect would be raised, not the rod's.

quoth the srd, emphasis mine:

A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

however, a maximized scorching ray would be effectively a 5th level spell - due to maximize spells' addition of 3 spell levels - and effectively be out of the range of what a lesser metamagic rod could affect.

 

[akbearfoot]

Yet said caster only requires a 12 intelligence to cast the empowered scorching ray, since metamagic increases the spell slot required but not the effective spell level. Also, the saving throw for a spell modified with metamagic still operates as the original spell level, with the exception of the heighten spell feat. It's actually a good question, and I am dont know if there is an explicit rules reference for it. However, I think balance wise it is a bad idea to allow such an obvious abuse. Metamagic rods are already extremely extremely powerful for their cheap, did I mention CHEAP prices. They fundamentally break the magic system as it was intended to function. Ie. allowing spell casters to cast spells of an effectively higher level than they normally could.


each ray of a maximized empowered scorching ray deals 24+2d6 damage. 4d6 maxed plus 50% of the dice you WOULD have rolled had they not been maxed.

 

[Menexenus]

Personally, I agree with all three responders so far that allowing an Empower Rod to empower a Scorching Ray spell that is memorized by the caster in a 5th level spell slot (using the caster's own Maximize Spell feat) is a bit much. But I need to give my player the benefit of the doubt, so allow me to put on my rules-lawyer hat... (BTW, I find it disturbing how well this hat fits... )

Metamagic Rods
Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell.

...

Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods
Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower...

So in some places the rules talk about "spell slots," but when describing the power of a Lesser Metamagic Rod the term that is used is not "spell slot" but "spell level". This seems to indicate that it is the base-spell's level that counts, not the level of the spell slot it occupies after being metamagicked. After all, if the rule had meant to stop the use of metamagicked spells, it could have said this: "Lesser rods can be used with spells that occupy 3rd level spell slots or lower..." Since the rule doesn't use this language when it easily could have, it must mean that the base spell's level is all that counts.

If you feel strongly about it, tell me why this reasoning is faulty. (On the other hand, if you agree with my player's reasoning here, please chime in! So far, things aren't going well for him.)

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think by RAW, you can use a lesser rod on the empowered scorching ray, since it is for all intents and purposes other than actual slot used, a 2nd level spell. This really isn't even so bad, considering that the empowered dice would NOT be maximized, due to how the rules work for combining metamagic feats.

 

[Corsair]

I think by RAW, you can use a lesser rod on the empowered scorching ray, since it is for all intents and purposes other than actual slot used, a 2nd level spell. This really isn't even so bad, considering that the empowered dice would NOT be maximized, due to how the rules work for combining metamagic feats.

What this guy said.

A 2nd level spell that has had metamagic applied to it is still a second level spell. It's save DC is based on it being 2nd level. Whether it gets through a Globe of Invulnerability is based on it being 2nd level. The amount of Spell Turning it eats up is based on it being 2nd level.

With the exception of Heighten Spell, no metamagic changes the actual level of the spell involved. (This means that a maximized scoring ray powers the Firey Burst feat as... again... a 2nd level spell)

So yes, a lesser metamagic rod can be used on a 2nd level spell that is already enhanced with +2 or more worth of metamagic feats.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I think by RAW, you can use a lesser rod on the empowered scorching ray, since it is for all intents and purposes other than actual slot used, a 2nd level spell.

Correct. The rule appears on page 88 of the Player's Handbook:

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: ​

In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.​

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Correct. The rule appears on page 88 of the Player's Handbook:

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: ​

In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.​

which was written before metamagic rods.

it says right there that it is cast as a higher level spell, and since the rod is being used as the spell is being cast, it is a higher level spell.

 

[glass]

which was written before metamagic rods.

The PHB was written before the DMG? Even if that is true, what difference does it make? Especially since they were released at the same time.

it says right there that it is cast as a higher level spell, and since the rod is being used as the spell is being cast, it is a higher level spell.

Put down that can and back away from it. We don't need to get those worms out again!

Taking the 20 page argument about when you use MM rods as read for a moment, lets take the case of sorcerers for a moment, whom everyone agrees do use the rods at casting time. They also make their opponents make saves at casting time, but we know that empowering a spell does not up the save DC. In other words, you argument does not follow.


glass.