Quickdraw

[Infiniti2000]

I believe Hyp's implication is that there is a categorical issue (the same as rectangles and squares.)

I realize that, but I was sure that at some point in a previous debate against others, Hyp argued that wands == weapons when the word 'weapon' was used because a wand is a weapon-like object. It's the same argument for substituting a weapon-like spell in many cases. Now, maybe I'm just blowing smoke here (not trying to though); just trying to draw a corollary.

In other words, does Weapon Focus (rays) apply to a ray spell? How about when using a wand of that spell? If yes to both (especially the second question), isn't that a valid argument to prove that a consistent rule be applied to quick draw?

 

[Hypersmurf]

In other words, does Weapon Focus (rays) apply to a ray spell? How about when using a wand of that spell? If yes to both (especially the second question), isn't that a valid argument to prove that a consistent rule be applied to quick draw?

Yes to both, but that doesn't make the wand an effective weapon, it makes the ray an effective weapon. The Weapon Focus doesn't apply to the wand, it applies to the ray that the wand creates.

-Hyp.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Hypersmurf seems, in my opinion, to always have the stance of, "This is how the rules say it." There's often an air of, "I know this is ridiculous, and I'm sure 95% of you will house rule this, but this is exactly how the rules portray it. Here's six examples supporting me."

You notice he's not saying anybody is at fault for not realizing his viewpoint- in this case, he's defending the ruling that Quick Draw doesn't, exactly as the rules are written, allow you to draw anything other than a weapon as a free action. He's given the exact examples he needs to give to reinforce this. Of course most people would look at this and say, "It's the exact same freakin' thing! I'm House Ruling this, STAT." and that person would have every right to do so, and I doubt it would impact the game. But Hypersmurf, being the Rules-Bot that he is, chimes in with an unoffensive, "Ahem. This is what the rules say."

Just my experience, anyway.

 

[mvincent]

Hypersmurf seems, in my opinion, to always have the stance of, "This is how the rules say it." There's often an air of, "I know this is ridiculous, and I'm sure 95% of you will house rule this, but this is exactly how the rules portray it. Here's six examples supporting me."

If so, I wish he would label it as such. While Hyp has excellent rules 'knowledge', I often see it abased by literalisms and (apparent) disinterest in the writer's intent.

Indeed, I have "six examples supporting me" from other published sources, but I haven't presented them here because they are valueless to Hyp (similar to the FAQ answer I gave earlier).

 

[aurance]

It's often good to know exactly what the rules say you can and cannot do, though, to have as a common starting ground to begin any necessary house-ruling and discussing. And I think that's what Hypersmurf provides to the best of his ability.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Yes to both, but that doesn't make the wand an effective weapon, it makes the ray an effective weapon. The Weapon Focus doesn't apply to the wand, it applies to the ray that the wand creates.

Sure, the point of the weapon focus (ray) reference wasn't to show that the wand is a weapon, but as a corollary that shows that 'draw a weapon' includes weapon-like objects consistently. A wand is a weapon-like object and thus whenever you 'draw a weapon' that includes wands.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sure, the point of the weapon focus (ray) reference wasn't to show that the wand is a weapon, but as a corollary that shows that 'draw a weapon' includes weapon-like objects consistently.

Wait, what? The Weapon Focus feat states that a spellcaster may select Ray. How does that show that a wand is considered a weapon for the purpose of drawing?

A wand is a weapon-like object and thus whenever you 'draw a weapon' that includes wands.

A wand is a weaponlike object, and thus when you take the Draw a Weapon action, you can draw a wand. But there's still a missing link in the logical chain if you want to draw a wand as a free action with Quick Draw.

-Hyp.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Wait, what? The Weapon Focus feat states that a spellcaster may select Ray. How does that show that a wand is considered a weapon for the purpose of drawing?

I thought the correlation was obvious, but it's because a ray spell is a weapon-like and a wand is weapon-like. Weapon Focus functions on not just weapons but weapon-like effects/objects. To be consistent, so does Quick Draw. For example, would you allow weapon focus (improvised weapons)? Could someone quick draw an improvised weapon?

The problem with your interpretation is that you're focusing on the negative, i.e. the absence of the phrase weapon-like and assuming that that means it doesn't include weapon-like. I don't believe your stance has merit because it then assumes inconsistency within the rules regarding weapons and weapon-like effects/objects.

 

[Animal]

While Hyp has excellent rules 'knowledge', I often see it abased by literalisms and (apparent) disinterest in the writer's intent.

it's a rules forum after all. you can never be sure what writer's intent was until he specifically explains his vision of it to you. but you can be quite sure about what is written in the rules if you're not inclined to make up things just to support your own judgement.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I thought the correlation was obvious, but it's because a ray spell is a weapon-like and a wand is weapon-like. Weapon Focus functions on not just weapons but weapon-like effects/objects.

Weapon Focus doesn't function on weapon-like effects/objects. It functions on weapons, and a spellcaster may select rays per the text of the feat. He can't select rays because they're weaponlike; he can select rays because the feat says he can.

The Draw a Weapon action says it can be used to draw a weaponlike object, just like the Weapon Focus feat says it can be used with rays. The Quick Draw feat doesn't say it can be used to draw a weaponlike object.

For example, would you allow weapon focus (improvised weapons)?

I wouldn't; one of the prerequisites for Weapon Focus is proficiency with the weapon, and someone is not proficient with an improvised weapon by definition.

Could someone quick draw an improvised weapon?

If it's an improvised weapon, it's not a weapon (or it wouldn't be improvised); it is, thus, a weaponlike object you intend to use in the fashion of a weapon. As a weaponlike object, it would incur the same ruling as wands. (That is, in this case, draw with Draw a Weapon, not with Quick Draw.)

-Hyp.