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Quint. PsyWar Thought

Arnix

First Post
I purchased the Quint. PsyWar and noticed something I thought was a little odd. None of the PrC's used the +1 manifester level. Those with additional powers, had their own spell progression.

I just found this to be strange and a little disappointing.



Arnix (tm)


[Edit: added E-mail Notification]
 
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So I've heard, mine is on the way and we'll see.

I do hope the Quint Psion book doesn't have this problem.

For the record, Psionic PrCs that require previous levels as a Psion or PsyWar should have "+1 Manifester Level".

Psionic PrCs that have No Psionics requirments (The Two in the Psionic Toolkit or the Truth Seeker in Dragon) should have 1st level advancement, just as the Assassin does with spells in the DMG.
 

I agree. That's what left me so disappointed in the Quint. PsyWar PrC's. Other than that, they seem to have a good concept, and decent abilities. I just can't ever see anyone using them because of being crippled by the manifester levels.
 

To repost my thoughts about the book from the Mongoose forum:

What I liked about the book:
1) I liked the Chakra thing. While a little gory, I thought that it better grounded the concept of "physical stat" psionics in eastern mysticism, which is sort of the way I have thought of it since the PsiHB came out.
2) I think the Character Concepts were better done than any Quintessential book. I usually dislike Character Concepts because they try to balance the character by penalizing skills that the character will not be using, which is a non-penalty AFAIAC. Character concepts in QPW actually penalize things that are important to a psychic warrior, like concentration.
3) The hybrid psychic combat makes the Psy War something other than a wet noodle in psychic combat.
4) Weapon manifestation and battle trances -- they sort of resemble weapon styles, but rely on feats, skill levels, and psionic reserve, so seem more balanced to me

What I didn't like about the book
1) The prestige classes don't use bonus manifester (or psychic warrior) levels, but restart their known power progression; most newer products add new levels of the base class manifesting.* They are already complaining about this one on the psionics boards on the wizards site.
1a) (side note) Shouldn't the "finesse fighter" get good reflex saves instead? In hybrid combat, is the DC really only the difference between the hit roll and AC (that's not very high), or is it supposed to the 1d20+the difference?
2) Some descriptions are confusing. Does the Rollover power actually prevent attacks from harming the character? The Chakra rules are a bit thick to pace through as well.
3) The powers are not arranged alphabetically, but by discipline and power level, making it very slow to look up powers. What were they thinking?


* - Side discussion on the prestige classes.
While I don't like "rebooting" power advancement for psionic classes, I can see how these classes could still be playable. They all have good BAB progression and decent class abilities.

HOWEVER

Many of the class abilities are enhancements to particular powers. Since they get so few powers (aggravated by their slow power progression), this really puts the pinch on some classes since in order to take advantage of these abilities, they have to forgo some arguably more essential powers. (For example, the finesse fighter cannot use the rollover ability at all unless they waited until 10th level and took rollover as their singular 4th level power)

What I would do that would make the classes more viable without retooling it to use continued manifester level advancement is:
1) If you do not have the power called out by a class ability, you get the power but not the enhancement from the class ability, and
2) Manifester levels stack for the purposes of effects.

That, I think, would make the classes playable in short order.
 

Just a little game design note on the manifester level thingie...

One problem with +1 manifester level for PrC's targeted towards partial spellcasters or psions like the Bard, Paladin, and Psychic Warrior is that you've got to play a lot with the class prereqs in order to prevent the PrC from being a balanced Psychic Warrior PrC without being an overpowered Psion PrC.

This is an artefact of the fact that +1 caster/manifester level doesn't always mean the same thing. My feeling is that the best solution would be to include a variant of the Psychic Warrior class in the splatbook that receives +2 manifester levels per 3 levels or so and have all PrC's meant for the Psychic Warrior follow a similar pattern. That's effectively the upshot of the weakened manifester levels for a Psychic Warrior anyway and would help standardize across different classes what is meant by having a manifester (or caster) level of a given value.

I think this would also smooth the path for mixing and matching Psions with Psychic Warrior PrCs and vice versa. The same solution would work nicely with Bards, Rangers, and Paladins.
 

OK, I've got my book and sorry to Mongoose Matt, but these Prestige classes are serioiusly flawed.
Consider:

The Double Weapon Fighter gains bonus feats, but none of the feats on his list are psionic feats. The main reason to play a Psychic Warrior over a Fighter Are the Psionic Feats.

The Finesse Fighter gains four "Improved" versions of new powers in this book, but what if he doesn't have those powers to start with? Leaping Blade is 1st level, Psychic Dervish is 3rd level, Rollover is a 4th level, and Wound Sliver is 5th level. A Psychic Warrior doesn't gain a 5th level power till 13th level and the Finesse Fighter doesn't get 5th level powers. He doesn't get a 1st level power till 6th level.

Mind Sniper has "Improved" versions of Bolt(0), Veander's Defence(1st) and Dread Coverage(2nd). In fact, several of the PrC's special abilites, require Bolt, but it is not required in the prerequisites of the PrC.

Power Fighter has Bonus feats, but no Psionic feats and Improved version of the Leverage Shift Power (0) and Psionic Weapon feat, which is not in the Requirments for the class.

The Psychic Predator, Spell Killer and Trophy Hunter are all 5 level classes that gain 2 zero level powers, that's it! One at fourth level and one at fifth level. And the Trophy Hunter gains a Bonus feat, but no Psionic feats are on it's list.

The section on powers has problems too. For some reason Psychoporative powers are broken into two parts and several powers are in the wrong disciplines.

Dread Coverage allows you to "Lock in" on a 20ft by 20ft area and gain a +5 bonus to Attack and Damage from missile attacks within. Clairsentient for enhanced senses? Psychoportative for affecting an area? Psychokinetic for enhancing a kinetic attack?
No, Psychometabolic, why, I cannot guess?

Void Targeting is also worth mentioning. A 5th level power that only grants you a +5 bonus to attacks at the cost of limited movement, Full-round attack option and you must attack all moving creatures, even you own party! The flavor text below this power makes a much better 5th level power. (Imagine the target in your mind's eye and hit it.)

Also, none of the powers are available to Psions (as they are listed) despite many being simular to powers from the Psion's list. Also, there is Seeker, a 2nd level power that requires a 1st level power. Both Psions and Psychic Warriors have too few powers to start the "you have to have this one to get that one" from 2e psionics again.

This book, much like the Psionic Handbook it's self is a very pretty crystal to look at, but very flawed to the expert's eye.
 
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Hi guys,

Cheers for your comments - I think, overall though, that many of you were expecting a 'general' psionics book. That was precisely what we told Sam Witt _not_ to do. We wanted to actually make Psychic Warriors 'feel' different from Psions, much in the same way as Sorcerers will feel different from Wizards. They may share a common rules base, but they should not act the same in game play. On to your specific points;

Psychic Progression: As 2WS-Steve pointed out, the simple +1 progression does not always work and what you have to be careful of is allowing Psychic Warriors one thing, but at the same time be wary of a Psion entering the class. It is a balance thing (and, incidentally, we will not automatically do something just because other 3rd parties have done it the same way in the past!). Basically, if you enter these prestige classes, you are wanting to become a specialist of some sort, and so the Psychic Warrior's more generalist nature will suffer in accordance. However, you will be getting some meaty class features in return - _that_ is the reason you would take these classes, not to keep your own progression going plus gain some nifty abilities.

Double Weapon Fighter & Power Fighter: Correct, they do not gain psionic feats as bonuses - but then, they are no longer true Psychic Warriors, but characters who have chosen to become more martial in nature. Has this never happened to a character of yours, whereby you change your mind as to where he is headed halfway through a campaign? These classes allow you to do that without bouncing straight back to the core Fighter class and, potentially, suffering multiclass penalties. It is just another twist on what a Psychic Warrior can possibly be.

Improved Powers: Again, yes, they are not always needed as prerequisites. So? :) If you want to take full advantage of the class, then you will ensure you di indeed have the power but, on the other hand, you may be just after one class feature among the whole lot. This comes down to flexibility, with players being able to pick and choose which classes they go into and which class features they can take maximum advantage of. As for the Finesse Fighter, there is nothing to say that all prestige class levels have to be taken one after the other. . .

Dread Coverage: We placed this one under Psychometabolism because it works directly upon the Psychic Warrior's own body. Psychoportive and Psychikinetic are just plain wrong for this power. Clairsentient, I agree, could potentially work, but that was not how we saw that particular power working.

Void Targeting: He is receiving a +5 bonus (that is, _+5_) to attack rolls for an extended period of time. Probably worth a few downsides :)

Psion Powers: You can, if you wish, allow Psions to tajke the Psychic Warriors powers in this book. However, Psions will be getting their own set in their own book and, remember, the whole point of this tome is to make Psychic Warriors different from Psions. It is not The Quintessential Psionicist - it is the Quintessential Psychic Warrior. We never intended it to be a generalists book.

Prerequisite Powers: You mention Seeker. True, it needs a prerequisite power, but this is not a theme carried on throughout the entire book. It is a fair trade off in terms of what the power can do and, at the end of the day, forcing players to plan a little ahead in terms of what they want to do is never a bad thing.

Flawed? With respect, I have to disagree. I can understand that some people may have been wanting a general psionics upgrade book, but that is not what The Quintessential Psychic Warrior is about. However, if you combine it with the forthcoming Quintessential Psion, I have a feeling you will get the best of both worlds - two psionic classes that stand up on their own, and yet are portrayed as something quite different.

After all, who wants to play a character who is a combination of a weakened Fighter and a weakened Psion? Psychic Warriors are meant to be hard! :)

Hope this helps,
 

Originally posted by Mongoose_Matt
Hi guys,

Double Weapon Fighter & Power Fighter: Correct, they do not gain psionic feats as bonuses - but then, they are no longer true Psychic Warriors, but characters who have chosen to become more martial in nature.

--------------------------------
Then why are they in a book titled Quintessential Psychic Warrior? If I want Fighter PrCs, I look in the Q-Fighter.
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Dread Coverage: We placed this one under Psychometabolism because it works directly upon the Psychic Warrior's own body.
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Technically ALL psionic powers are working directly on or from the PC's own body.
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Void Targeting: He is receiving a +5 bonus (that is, _+5_) to attack rolls for an extended period of time. Probably worth a few downsides :)
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Like shooting your fellow players in the back? I'm not letting my PC get within range of your PC ;)
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Psion Powers: You can, if you wish, allow Psions to tajke the Psychic Warriors powers in this book. However, Psions will be getting their own set in their own book and, remember, the whole point of this tome is to make Psychic Warriors different from Psions.
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I was mainly thinking of the poor Nomads, they need help.
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After another day reading I would say there are some very good things here also.

The character concepts are very good. Far too many Psy Wars start and end with the Star Wars theme playing behind them.

The Hybrid Psychic Combat is very good and will blend nicely with an upcomming Mind's Eye (Tease..:p..Tease)

The Chakras mentions Piercings and Tattoos, but never follows up on that. I don't see any of my Psy Wars "flaying" themselves, but some killer tattoos would be nice.

The Feat section was disapointing. Psionic feats are what define Psy Wars to alot of us and these just don't work for me. Consider, Arrow Attack: Must know the powers Telekinetic Load & Reinforce Arrow. This feat allows you to manifest them simultaneously. Why not just take Quicken Power and manifest Any two powers in a round? Too many of the feats are dependant on new powers from this book.

Psionically Active Materials is very good! Glyss as a psionic form of glass is a nice addition for my current Psychemist PrC I've been playing with and Crystal Weaves and Prosthetics are very good as well. As for Psychoactive Drugs, well not my cup of tea. I'll stick with psionic potions (called Ptsians BTW).

The Powers list is a jumbled mess, hard to navigate.

As to the Weapon Meditations & Battle Trances, these are going to take some playtesting, but look very good. I have always imagined Twilight Suzuka on Outlaw Star as a Psy War and these two would definatly fit her.

Haven't sunk my teeth in the Psionic Canabalism yet (I'll wait till lunch tomarow :D ), but I think the Illithid in my games are about to get much more hungry.
 
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I received my copy of the Quint Psychic Warrior and spent some time looking through it. I must say I like it...mostly because it provides more ways to help set apart a Psy. Warrior from the Psions.

I'm more interested in flavor than with stats (which I can tweak). By the way, the Quint. Witch was excellent!!!

So from this corner, I'd like to say: nice job! I'm look forward to the next Quint. book in the series.
 

The weapon meditations are a very good addition to the Psychic Warrior, but there needs to be some rules for trading out some of the skills and abilities.

The Medium Bladed Weapons meditation is all based on mounted combat, but what if my Psy War is a Swashbuckling Corsair? Not much room on his ship for a horse. What about Halfling or Dwarven Psy Wars here? Can they use the Large meditation since these weapons are large to them?

Also, there needs to be a Meditation for Unarmed Combat to create a "Psychic Martial Artist". I assume Exotic Weapons fall under their size.

Let's see, imagine a PsyWar that finds a Psionic weapon as treasure, a Thri-kreen Gythka pole arm. Something about the weapon just "synchs" with him and he starts working on mastering it. But it isn't untill much later that he encounters a Thri-kreen hive and they teach him all the little things he missed.
At this point he takes Weapon Meditation feat: Double Weapon at 14th level. If his Spot & Listen skills are at 10 ranks, he would jump to third rank immediatly, right?

I also have issues with the "Use any other weapon and suffer subdual damage". The only reason drawing your sword should hurt you is when you are holding the wrong end.

For my game, I an going to change this to a -2 / rank BAB penatly to using other weapons. A 20th level Psy War with 5th rank meditation goes from +15/+10/+5 to just +5 when he changes weapons. The main reason for this is that Rat Bastard DMs would probably start targeting that weapon with enemies with Improved Disarm and critical fumbles. How many Maces has Mara lost over in Pirate Cat's story hour?

Rules for creating additional Battle Trance abilites would be good too. Some of them are very limited and rare ones could be taught only by specific schools or masters. The weapon Katas in d20 Rokugan may need to be revisited with a eye to psionics. (The L5R rules Insight rank is limited to 5 levels so this might be the guide for which round it can be taken)

Among the First round benefits, Chakra Targeting is limited to Psionic Opponents & Possible Attack to multiple opponents, so Unconcious Defence it is (give up one of your attacks and gain it's BAB as a deflection bonus to AC vs. one attack). Can you forego activating any benefits untill suddenly unleashing Thousand Cuts in the 5th round?
 
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