Races with Charisma Penalties

[dreaded_beast]

Do you think that races with charisma penalties would suffer penalties among their own kind?

For example, would half-orcs just not get along due to their low charisma? Same thing for dwarves?

Is their low charisma a result of just being born "uncharismatic"?

 

[Hand of Evil]

I am of the feeling that it is their nature, I see the charisma penalties being tied directly to alignment in an off-manner way, they are rude, ill mannered, blunt, that will lead to conflicts or a very lawful (polite) culture.

Hey, it is just a thought.

 

[ScottDM]

I don't think races should suffer a charisma penalty. Also, would they suffer a charisma penaly to there own races. Look at dwarves for example. Sure they are gruff, ill tempered little bastards, but why would they suffer a penalty with the god they see as the maker of their race? Charisma seems too tied to the person to ever suffer a racial penalty IMHO.

 

[Arkhandus]

Since all members of a race have the Charisma penalty, they're all making opposed Diplomacy checks and such against eachother at the same penalty, so they're all doing equally poorly bartering with eachother or whatnot. Just like how a halfling's +1 attack bonus for size is irrelevant against another halfling because of their +1 size bonus to AC for being small. It doesn't really affect them much amongst their own kind. And just because a race is gruff, blunt, and ornery, like Dwarves, doesn't mean that they're bad at noticing other folks being the same (no Wisdom penalty, so Sense Motive doesn't suffer, but that's only used to oppose Bluff anyway).

And some people are just naturally ill-tempered, rude, or anti-social in real life, so of course it's possible that a race may have similar tendencies instinctively as a whole. Even though Dwarves may suffer a Charisma penalty that affects their dealings with Moradin (through whatever means), Moradin created them to be of such a mind, so he isn't likely to be fazed by it. In the same way that dragon deities don't mind the impiety and enormous ego of their draconic creations, because they made them that way, and they wanted them to feel superior over other creatures. So they don't take offense at such behavior most of the time, and aren't likely to smite their followers for being just as gruff or egocentric as they intended.

Remember, Charisma is a combination of beauty, slyness, persuasiveness, ego, and force of personality. Dwarves are gruff and a bit ill-tempered, but they are also very communal and clannish, very close to their community/family, and do not have particularly distinctive personalities individually (otherwise they couldn't be so accurately categorized as being generally blunt, gruff, and ill-tempered). Orcs/Half-Orcs are horribly egotistical and selfish instinctively, and don't much care for others, let alone those who get in their way. Orcs/Half-Orcs are naturally less cooperative and compromising, and don't care for social mores or taboos, compared to humans.

 

[eris404]

Do you think that races with charisma penalties would suffer penalties among their own kind?

For example, would half-orcs just not get along due to their low charisma? Same thing for dwarves?

Is their low charisma a result of just being born "uncharismatic"?

It depends on how you define charisma in your game, too. It could be that dwarves and half-orcs tend to be quiet loners, to dislike the company of others, to lack the certain something that makes them noticed and respected by others, even of their own race. I don't personally like this idea for dwarves, because I think they would be more inclined to favorably regard others of their race. I might give them a +1 bonus to Charisma-based checks with other dwarves. I wouldn't do this for half-orcs as written in the PHB, because they tend to be caught between cultures and to have just enough self-loathing to dislike everyone.

 

[dreaded_beast]

Interesting replies everyone.

What about dealing with how a particular dwarf/half-orc is raised?

If the dwarf/half-orc charisma penalty is a result of the "environment" they are raised in while growing up, do you believe that the penalty would still result?

While I understand and agree with the need for the balancing factors in racial adjustments, I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea of having a penalty in Charisma beyond, "because that is just the way it is."

I'm sure these are questions that can not be answered in any definate way, but it sure is an interesting read.

 

[Ryltar]

Try to see it this way: though CHA is globally somewhat "reduced" with members of certain races, they can still have an exceptionally high CHA compared to other members of their race. For a race with -2 CHA penalty, average CHA scores might be 8, not the usual 10, and thus, you can still be a charismatic member of your own kind, while the -2 CHA is still warranted on a "global" scale, especially regarding the more lawful societies.

 

[Umbran]

Rules-wise, it is pretty clear that there's more to Charisma than sociability. Interpersonal skills are a major aspect of the stat, but it also powers Clerical turning of undead and the magic of bards and sorcerers. The Use Magic Device skill is based off of Charisma. Paladin's saves are modified by Charisma.

So there's more than social skill involved here. How good a talker you are isn't going to save you from a Fireball. There's an innate, nigh-magical power of selfness behind Charisma. And one can consider that a person is born with that, and it cannot be learned or changed by how one is raised.

 

[rangerjohn]

Rules-wise, it is pretty clear that there's more to Charisma than sociability. Interpersonal skills are a major aspect of the stat, but it also powers Clerical turning of undead and the magic of bards and sorcerers. The Use Magic Device skill is based off of Charisma. Paladin's saves are modified by Charisma.

So there's more than social skill involved here. How good a talker you are isn't going to save you from a Fireball. There's an innate, nigh-magical power of selfness behind Charisma. And one can consider that a person is born with that, and it cannot be learned or changed by how one is raised.

The only problem with this is it makes all but the rarest dwarves, insecure.

 

[Snoweel]

It depends on how you define charisma in your game, too.

Good answer.

Likewise with alignment questions - they are ultimately campaign-specific.