Racial Tiers

[thecasualoblivion]

First off, after the Paragon feat it's doing better damage than Hunter's Quarry. Secondly, with a CB5 you're usually hitting quite a few guys. I commonly wait until I can get 5 or 6 enemies in the blast, which means I can do in one round with a minor what would take the Ranger multiple rounds to equal. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Even taking damage out of the equation, as you mentioned it's a minion sweeper power. Fey step is just a 5 square teleport. Yes, it's useful, but only when trying to get somewhere you can't walk to, or trying to get away from an enemy. It burns a move action, so you would have to burn your standard to double move if it didn't get you far enough. It's a very situational power that has limited utility for some classes. Our Wizard, for example? He has it, but he almost never uses it. I do a good enough job with my Fighter to keep enemies off his back that he never needs an emergency escape. The one time he did use it, the enemy just moved up next to him in the next round and attacked him anyway. All it did was save him one OA, if that.

Plus, you're completely ignoring the stat bonuses. Str and Cha? Those are great stat boosts for a Paladin or Melee Cleric. They're also the only race that gets a boost to the primary stat for a Fighter. I'm not saying they're the best race out there, but 3rd tier?

Its often difficult to hit a lot of enemies with Dragon Breath. Allies tend to get in the way, and the big area requires a steep investment of feats that are often better spent elsewhere. Assuming 3 enemies hit, the Ranger can easily better that without breaking a sweat over the course of the encounter. It also doesn't compare with Thundersoul Genasi, who can wreck things with an area Lightning/Thunder attack, which is easily accomplished by a Swordmage or Wizard.

Fey Step isn't a great power on a Wizard. It gets really interesting when you place it on a Fighter, Ranger, Warlock, Rogue, Warlord or Swordmage, particularly the Fighter and Warlord who generally don't get powers like that. On a Wizard, its an escape clause. On a melee class, its also an offensive weapon.

As for tiers, the space between them isn't very great. The difference between the top and bottom tiers is very small.

 

[Drakhar]

Its often difficult to hit a lot of enemies with Dragon Breath. Allies tend to get in the way, and the big area requires a steep investment of feats that are often better spent elsewhere. Assuming 3 enemies hit, the Ranger can easily better that without breaking a sweat over the course of the encounter. It also doesn't compare with Thundersoul Genasi, who can wreck things with an area Lightning/Thunder attack, which is easily accomplished by a Swordmage or Wizard.

Fey Step isn't a great power on a Wizard. It gets really interesting when you place it on a Fighter, Ranger, Warlock, Rogue, Warlord or Swordmage, particularly the Fighter and Warlord who generally don't get powers like that. On a Wizard, its an escape clause. On a melee class, its also an offensive weapon.

As for tiers, the space between them isn't very great. The difference between the top and bottom tiers is very small.

I'm going to have to agree with everyone who thinks that Dragonborns are definately not third tier when compared to the other races. They make great Paladins, Warlords, Fighters and Melee clerics. They make decent TWF Rangers, can be useful in either Rogue build, as a Warlock if they go infernal I wouldn't be surprised if their dragons breath did more damage then many of their encounter powers at paragon, and their cha boost makes them decent Star, Fey and Dark pact warlocks. They have the Strength to be decent swordmages, they synergize well with Rageblood Barbarians, and their Cha boost helps them qualify for Wizard feats as well as a Staff wizard synergizes well with their racial abilities. They get a CB5 encounter power for one feat, can make it use d10s instead of d6's for another. They're the only Normal vision race able to get Low-light vision sans magic gear, which can be a big plus if your DM actually uses the lighting rules properly. When you compare all this to the races you claim are first tier, they definately belong up there with them.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Third tier isn't an insult. I just rank the other races higher.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Its often difficult to hit a lot of enemies with Dragon Breath. Allies tend to get in the way, and the big area requires a steep investment of feats that are often better spent elsewhere.

It costs one feat. How many other powers can you turn from a Burst 1 or CB 3 to a Burst 2 or BC 5 with one feat? I don't think one feat is steep. Then to get the d10's, that's one more feat, but the Ranger is already spending a feat to get the higher Quarry damage I assume? Unless he's rocking the 3d6 in Epic... So the net difference is still 1 feat.

Assuming 3 enemies hit

What are you basing that on? Allies getting in the way? Mine don't. I fire it off as soon as I'm able to get a decent number of enemies in the blast area. Sometimes I hit three, other times I hit 5 and cause my DM to curse because I just took out 3/4 of the minions in that encounter.

 

[DracoSuave]

What are you basing that on? Allies getting in the way? Mine don't. I fire it off as soon as I'm able to get a decent number of enemies in the blast area. Sometimes I hit three, other times I hit 5 and cause my DM to curse because I just took out 3/4 of the minions in that encounter.

Agreed. A party with a Dragonborn doesn't take till Paragon tier to realize that Dragonborn come with Dragon Breath and that they should consider its use in tactical deployment.

 

[Victim]

Clerics, Rangers, Fighters, Warlords and Paladins can all base their attacks on STR. That's most of the classes. Dragonborn and Humans are the only core races that can have STR bonuses. Hmm.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Agreed. A party with a Dragonborn doesn't take till Paragon tier to realize that Dragonborn come with Dragon Breath and that they should consider its use in tactical deployment.

What's great is that our other Defender is a Dragonborn Paladin (Yeah, two Dragonborn in the same party...), so we both like to use our Dragonbreaths as opening salvos in the fight when enemies are usually a bit clumped. Or, if they're spread out, we'll just wait until they start coming up to our battle line, and then we'll let loose. It's very effective for marking and catching aggro when the Pally needs a break, and it's a good minion killer. If I miss some of them, then our Wizard can work cleanup with his Scorching Burst.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Agreed. A party with a Dragonborn doesn't take till Paragon tier to realize that Dragonborn come with Dragon Breath and that they should consider its use in tactical deployment.

I find that Dragon Breath(and other blast powers) are far less potent against a DM who works hard at avoiding the monsters lining up all nice for area powers. A DM like me.

 

[DracoSuave]

Come to think of it, why is Dwarf on the top? There are no classes in the game at all that go Wis/Con as both good for it except fighters, and that's two completely disparate builds.

As well, having a racial that's based on one of the attributes the class gives you is a feature, not a bug. Why does that cause Tiefling to plummet more than Dragonborn?

And if Drow are narrow for one class, and halfings are narrow for one single build of one class (Cha-Rogues), how does Half-elf get rated lower when they are good for -every- build of a single class, and have access to the best feat in the game?

 

[DracoSuave]

I find that Dragon Breath(and other blast powers) are far less potent against a DM who works hard at avoiding the monsters lining up all nice for area powers. A DM like me.

I find that parties determined to get enemies in handy bundles for area effect spells can find ways of doing so in this push-me/pull-you/slide-this heavy world we call 4th edition.